Clown Loaches hiding and not coming out for food

[karenz]

My two clown loaches, which I have had for around 3 years, have suddenly started hiding in their log and not coming out, even for food, previously they were very active and outgoing especially in the morning and evening around feed time. They do not appear to be sick but I am worried they will starve to death, I have not introduced any new fish or changed their tank around.

[camtang]

How long has this been going on for?

I hardly ever see mine move. They sit rite in the back corner most of the time then occasionally pop there head out. Sometimes when there is food I only see one or two other times the entire mob comes out. I havn't had CL for long and just put it down to normal behaviour. I just made sure I feed at night, 3 months on now sunken bellies and nothing floating.

[karenz]

Mine have always been active and outgoing, every day up until now they would swim up and down in the corner of the tank waiting to be fed, almost like they are begging, sometimes clicking their teeth. My daughter said they were still doing this up until Tuesday morning. The only thing that has changed is that the aquarium light would not have been put on regularly at night for a few hours (if at all).

[David R]

Tank size? Temp? Water parameters? Tankmates? Decor?

Generally I'd suggest adding more clowns, but without knowing the above I'd just be stabbing in the dark.

[karenz]

it's 80cm wide by 58cm high x 40cm wide, not sure of the levels as I don't have a testing kit, not many other fish in there just a big goldfish, a big pleco and 4 black widows (the goldfish was the original inhabitant and the tank kind of grew since there - 4 upgrades later. I change around a third of the water weekly but it had been 2 weeks since the last change because I was away

[morfin]

What temp is the tank - strange to have goldfish and tropicals in one tank?

[karenz]

The temperature gauge is too hard to read, must buy a new one, but the temperature didn't change between Tuesday and Wednesday, yes it is strange but the goldfish is really social and active, and was tiny when it went into the tank about 8 years ago along with the Pleco which was also tiny, only has a mutual problem with the Pleco, which tries to ram the goldfish but the goldfish (Goldzilla) rises at the last moment and the Pleco bangs into the end of the tank. The Clowns have been really active and social up until Wednesday and I can see them moving around in their log when it is food time, last night one of them came out when I turned the light off but scuttled back in straight away when I walked past.

[alexyay]

The temperature gauge is too hard to read, must buy a new one, but the temperature didn't change between Tuesday and Wednesday, yes it is strange but the goldfish is really social and active, and was tiny when it went into the tank about 8 years ago along with the Pleco which was also tiny, only has a mutual problem with the Pleco, which tries to ram the goldfish but the goldfish (Goldzilla) rises at the last moment and the Pleco bangs into the end of the tank. The Clowns have been really active and social up until Wednesday and I can see them moving around in their log when it is food time, last night one of them came out when I turned the light off but scuttled back in straight away when I walked past.

The only fish the tank isn't too small for is the black widows. Definitely get a proper temperature reading as it may be too cold for the loaches. They'll also be pretty shy in such small numbers - they're most active in groups of about 6+ and need schools.

Also with high bioload fish in such a small tank, check your nitrates - the loaches may be more sensitive to the nitrates than the others.

Edit: I just read through previous posts and realized I've already said this, along with others. I think you'll continue to have issues with your fish if you continue to keep them in such a small overstocked tank (sorry to be blunt, but the last thing I want is for you to experience all your fish dying when it's preventable D:)

[KrazyGeoff]

Thats a 170 litre tank which is not too small, except for the big pleco.

I would guess that they are scared of something.

Have you been away?

have they been without the regular foot traffic near the tank?

How big are the loaches?

There needs to be more loaches though, as they like bigger groups of "friends"

Cheers

[alexyay]

Thats a 170 litre tank which is not too small, except for the big pleco.

I would guess that they are scared of something.

Have you been away?

have they been without the regular foot traffic near the tank?

How big are the loaches?

There needs to be more loaches though, as they like bigger groups of "friends"

Cheers

Clown loaches eventually get to 30cm+, Liveaquaria recommends 100gallons and Seriouslyfish recommend 180x60cm base size. I've seen the fully grown one at HFF (and the partially grown in our 450L) and there's no way I'd put those in a 170L.

imo I personally wouldn't put goldfish in anything less than a pond - but even the smallest growing ones get to 20cm+ which is pretty big for a 170L tank. The goldfish and pleco are huge bioload fish and unless it's got some pretty good filtration I don't know whether it'd be able to handle the load and keep the nitrates to an acceptable level without frequent water changes.

[karenz]

Yes, I have been away for a little over two weeks so the normal pattern at home has changed, in that the lights in the house and the aquarium light are not put on regularly and there is less movement in the room, also the television, which is visible from the tank would not have been on much at all, though I have been told that the loaches were swimming around quite a lot and begging for food up until Tuesday morning, it was only when I got back and looked for them on Thursday that I noticed they were hiding in a log. Also I do think that having the goldfish there is not a good idea, my daughter has a goldfish tank but it is a cold one, would my goldfish adapt to that given that it has been in a warm tank for around 6 years? The Pleco I would not mind rehoming as he really is quite big, and would like to get more loaches. They are about 4 or 5 years old. Can't measure them now because they are hiding but think they are about 10 to 12cms.

[KrazyGeoff]

Yes, I have been away for a little over two weeks so the normal pattern at home has changed, in that the lights in the house and the aquarium light are not put on regularly and there is less movement in the room, also the television, which is visible from the tank would not have been on much at all, though I have been told that the loaches were swimming around quite a lot and begging for food up until Tuesday morning, it was only when I got back and looked for them on Thursday that I noticed they were hiding in a log. Also I do think that having the goldfish there is not a good idea, my daughter has a goldfish tank but it is a cold one, would my goldfish adapt to that given that it has been in a warm tank for around 6 years? The Pleco I would not mind rehoming as he really is quite big, and would like to get more loaches. They are about 4 or 5 years old. Can't measure them now because they are hiding but think they are about 10 to 12cms.

So you have had 4 upgrades, I'll take that to mean aquarium upgrades, which means that you are possibly growing your tank, as your fish grow. That sounds like a responsible thing to do.

It would be silly to think that people would start with a tank that would be large enough for the maximum theoretical size for a fish. Crickey if that was the case then common pleco's and loaches etc would be illegal to sell! Or immoral at the least.

You know that clown loaches are to a fish tank what the canaries were to miners in the not too distant past. This is because clown loaches will get white spot at the first sign of anything wrong with a tank.

Any old irresponsible fishkeeper can stuff their tank with fish and then change the water every 6 months, and wonder why things are not well. A responsible aquarist on the other hand will perform the correct amount of maintenance to keep their aquarium in a healthy state. You are obviously doing something right, since your world is not the toxic cesspit of biological chaos that it potentially could be.

I have a tank about that size, and I had 7 clown loaches, about that size in it, and 50 tetras and some bristlenose and some breeding panaqualos. Sure it required some maintenance, but each sort of fish had their water layer and comfort zones, so if it's working for you don't let other peoples ignorance and theoretical experience influence your decisions.

Note that I did need to move the loaches out as they were pretty much at the max size for the tank.

So.......

Something may have happened to change the fishes behaviour. It may be the lack of traffic, or the lack of water change (it might be possible that your filtration system is close to being maxed out, so the extra week with no new water may have had an impact), still there is a bit too much co-incidence for me.

It might be time to shift it up a bit and replace some of them fishes.

At 12 cm those clown loaches have possibly gotten a little large for that tank?

I think you would have no troubles moving the gold fish to the cold water tank, as especially at this time of year, a non heated tank in NZ, is not really that cold.

I would do a water change in both tanks, then I would take a bag of water for the warm tank, and put the goldfish in it, then I would take that bag, with the fish in it, and I would put it in the cold tank. After a few hours the water in both the bag and the tank should be the same temperature. I would observe the goldfish and if it looks ok then I would release it into the tank.

BUT because goldfish are pooh machines, I would be irresponsible if I did not mention that this fish will have an effect on the bio load of the goldfish tank, and without knowing the existing load on the goldfish tank I would identify this as the potential biggest issue.

Now back to the main tank.

Give it say, another week, for the filters to adjust to having less load and have already arranged to swap your medium clown loaches for some smaller ones, you might want to start negotiating at 2 little ones for each medium one, and perhaps you will get 3 little ones for your 2 medium ones? At the same time remove the big pleco, and replace it with a bristlenose. In addition I would get at least a total of 5 clown loaches as they do like to be in shoals.

And there you have it, that's what I would do. Potentially you could swap the big pleco for a bristlenose before you swap out the clown loaches, but I think that 5 small clown loaches and a bristlenose would make less of an impact in terms of reducing the total bio load than breaking it up further than just removing the goldfish first.

Alexyay is right in terms of a clown loach will outgrow most typical home aquariums, but it is still acceptable to grow them to about the size you have in your sized aquarium and then move them on.

Now, you may be very attached to all of these fish, and that's ok, but I would ask you this.

"If keeping these fish in this aquarium is no longer in the best interest of these fishes welfare, then is moving them on and getting smaller ones to grow out a better thing to do"?

Well that's my thought.

Interesting that this started out as a hmmmm my fish are behaving differently........ But it might be that your fish have outgrown the tank..... And the extra week of no maintenance has alerted you to this?

Cheers

[alexyay]

So you have had 4 upgrades, I'll take that to mean aquarium upgrades, which means that you are possibly growing your tank, as your fish grow. That sounds like a responsible thing to do.

It would be silly to think that people would start with a tank that would be large enough for the maximum theoretical size for a fish. Crickey if that was the case then common pleco's and loaches etc would be illegal to sell! Or immoral at the least.

You know that clown loaches are to a fish tank what the canaries were to miners in the not too distant past. This is because clown loaches will get white spot at the first sign of anything wrong with a tank.

Any old irresponsible fishkeeper can stuff their tank with fish and then change the water every 6 months, and wonder why things are not well. A responsible aquarist on the other hand will perform the correct amount of maintenance to keep their aquarium in a healthy state. You are obviously doing something right, since your world is not the toxic cesspit of biological chaos that it potentially could be.

I have a tank about that size, and I had 7 clown loaches, about that size in it, and 50 tetras and some bristlenose and some breeding panaqualos. Sure it required some maintenance, but each sort of fish had their water layer and comfort zones, so if it's working for you don't let other peoples ignorance and theoretical experience influence your decisions.

Note that I did need to move the loaches out as they were pretty much at the max size for the tank.

So.......

Exactly - they will have to move the clown loaches. Considering they weren't aware they are a schooling fish I didn't think OP had planned to upgrade their tank, as upgrading to a 400L+ is a huge thing to do. Clown loaches will grow fast enough that they won't fit in a 170L tank for long (their grow does slow down after a while but they can get big quickly). Sales tanks are known to be temporary, but I hadn't had any indication that their setup was to be upgraded - better I say something rather than stay silent and think OP will upgrade eventually.

It's not theoretical - those fish WILL get too big, and the bioload is also pretty big. We also own clown loaches and they got big enough within a year of owning them that I personally wouldn't have kept them in a 170L for very long. Not theoretical experience, practical experience. It's important to get input from everyone so feel free to let my ignorance influence your decisions if it's given you an idea of size and whether or not your tank is appropriate.

I'm not saying OP has done anything wrong but they have been told before that the tank is probably too small for the bioload and I don't want to see their fish die. OP had fish frequently dying and getting sick based on their last thread, so it was a bit of a biological chaos.

[alexyay]

Now RE: OP, sure, your goldfish will probably do fine in a tank switch I've had fish go from different temps before without issue - just do a slow acclimation and take note if it's showing any sign of stress.

I find irregular lighting times can make fish a bit iffy sometimes (depending on how irregular that is of course) - maybe get a timer? They're my saviors lol - really easy to use and saves me remembering especially if I want to sleep in

If you skipped or were late on the WC the nitrate levels may have gotten a bit high and stressed them out, unless you notice any disease-like symptoms too. I think a check of the water parameters would be a really good idea (and can help determine why they're shy and stressed)

Definitely up the loach school and they'll probably come out more, but like said above the tank will eventually need an upgrade.

[Discusguru]

So you have had 4 upgrades, I'll take that to mean aquarium upgrades, which means that you are possibly growing your tank, as your fish grow. That sounds like a responsible thing to do.

It would be silly to think that people would start with a tank that would be large enough for the maximum theoretical size for a fish. Crickey if that was the case then common pleco's and loaches etc would be illegal to sell! Or immoral at the least.

You know that clown loaches are to a fish tank what the canaries were to miners in the not too distant past. This is because clown loaches will get white spot at the first sign of anything wrong with a tank.

Any old irresponsible fishkeeper can stuff their tank with fish and then change the water every 6 months, and wonder why things are not well. A responsible aquarist on the other hand will perform the correct amount of maintenance to keep their aquarium in a healthy state. You are obviously doing something right, since your world is not the toxic cesspit of biological chaos that it potentially could be.

I have a tank about that size, and I had 7 clown loaches, about that size in it, and 50 tetras and some bristlenose and some breeding panaqualos. Sure it required some maintenance, but each sort of fish had their water layer and comfort zones, so if it's working for you don't let other peoples ignorance and theoretical experience influence your decisions.

Note that I did need to move the loaches out as they were pretty much at the max size for the tank.

So.......

Something may have happened to change the fishes behaviour. It may be the lack of traffic, or the lack of water change (it might be possible that your filtration system is close to being maxed out, so the extra week with no new water may have had an impact), still there is a bit too much co-incidence for me.

It might be time to shift it up a bit and replace some of them fishes.

At 12 cm those clown loaches have possibly gotten a little large for that tank?

I think you would have no troubles moving the gold fish to the cold water tank, as especially at this time of year, a non heated tank in NZ, is not really that cold.

I would do a water change in both tanks, then I would take a bag of water for the warm tank, and put the goldfish in it, then I would take that bag, with the fish in it, and I would put it in the cold tank. After a few hours the water in both the bag and the tank should be the same temperature. I would observe the goldfish and if it looks ok then I would release it into the tank.

BUT because goldfish are pooh machines, I would be irresponsible if I did not mention that this fish will have an effect on the bio load of the goldfish tank, and without knowing the existing load on the goldfish tank I would identify this as the potential biggest issue.

Now back to the main tank.

Give it say, another week, for the filters to adjust to having less load and have already arranged to swap your medium clown loaches for some smaller ones, you might want to start negotiating at 2 little ones for each medium one, and perhaps you will get 3 little ones for your 2 medium ones? At the same time remove the big pleco, and replace it with a bristlenose. In addition I would get at least a total of 5 clown loaches as they do like to be in shoals.

And there you have it, that's what I would do. Potentially you could swap the big pleco for a bristlenose before you swap out the clown loaches, but I think that 5 small clown loaches and a bristlenose would make less of an impact in terms of reducing the total bio load than breaking it up further than just removing the goldfish first.

Alexyay is right in terms of a clown loach will outgrow most typical home aquariums, but it is still acceptable to grow them to about the size you have in your sized aquarium and then move them on.

Now, you may be very attached to all of these fish, and that's ok, but I would ask you this.

"If keeping these fish in this aquarium is no longer in the best interest of these fishes welfare, then is moving them on and getting smaller ones to grow out a better thing to do"?

Well that's my thought.

Interesting that this started out as a hmmmm my fish are behaving differently........ But it might be that your fish have outgrown the tank..... And the extra week of no maintenance has alerted you to this?

Cheers

:gopo: :iag:

It all come down to how you maintain your tank.

How often do you see 30+ cm clown loach. They take years to grow that big.

As for the goldfish you can half fill a 20 ltrs bucket and put it in. Slowly add water from the cold water into it. Then release it into the tank.

Ron

[alexyay]

My apologies if I came off rude at all - I made a bad assumption (when I saw 2 clown loaches, a goldfish and large pleco in a 170L I can come off as quite rude but I'm just being passionate and trying to educate - sometimes it's not done in the correct way and I'm sorry about that). It wasn't my intention to come off as holier-than-thou or as though I'm correct all the time. However I've read over my first post and I don't see it as rude, and got upset when called ignorant.

[livingart]

It is a pity the message can be lost in the delivery.

[livingart]

+1 to krazy geoffs post

Sometimes he is not so crazy :nilly:

[David R]

At 4-5 years old and only 10-12cm I'd have to agree. Clowns AREN'T super-slow growers when housed correctly, I've raised LFS-sized clowns to 6"+ in a couple of years. They require warm water (27C+), strong flow, good food and a long tank. I wouldn't keep even tiny ones in less than a 120cm tank, and IMO it is best to move them up to something more like 180cm by the time they hit 10-12cm. They are never going to be oscar-fast growers, but at 5 years old they should be bigger than 12cm IME. CL's will never physically outgrow a tank like a pacu or arowana will, instead when not housed in an adequately sized aquarium they tend to top growing and slowly fade away. They are active schooling potentially-foot-long fish, and simply will not thrive if not housed accordingly.