clubbing80s Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Hi. Before i did a water change i tested the water peramiters. Ph was 7, ammonia was 0 , nitrite was up 0.25 and niterate was 0. I vacumed the tank a per normal, maybe a little more water around 25 %. I did this today round 1 pm . I got home at 8 pm and my fish where gasping . So i tested the water ph was high but that normal from the tap water and yhe ammonia was 0 but both nitrite 0.50 and nitrate 5.0 where up. I havnt had issue with nitrite and nitrate since the tank cycled. Recent changes this werk where chaning the pleco food also eaten by the silver dollers. I fed the oscar 3 mealworms although he was not to intetested but left then to see if he would eat then in a bit i and yesterday i had put a piece of carrot in the tank to see if the pleco and silver dollars would eat it. Would the mealworms and or carrot casue a sharp spike in nit*s ? I have done an 70% water change the fish are now swimming but the nitrite is still up. I will have to do another one tomorrow i suspect. For me the big issue is where did the nitrite spike come from so that i can avoid such nasties . Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepsnana Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Decomposing plants, food, or fish &c:ry Could be a mini cycle :dunno: Whats the size of the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 What was the ph? Big ph wings can cause the fish to gasp as the surface. If it was at the top of the ph scale on your test card it could be way over. Do you have a high range ph test kit that you could test with to check this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 oscars are notoriously messy feeders, so I wouldnt be surprised if a large chunk of food has got lodged somewhere. also have you (or your oscar) moved anything around in the tank recently exposing a dead spot in the gravel. btw your 75L tank in your signature is seriously extremely over stocked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 What was the ph? Big ph wings can cause the fish to gasp as the surface. If it was at the top of the ph scale on your test card it could be way over. Do you have a high range ph test kit that you could test with to check this? Hi. The ph was 7.0 then went up to about 7.6 , but that was only after the water change, my tap water is typically 7.4 to 7.6 . Never used the high range test, I will look at the high range an see if it's higher than normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Decomposing plants, food, or fish &c:ry Could be a mini cycle :dunno: Whats the size of the tank? All 4 fish are still swimming so must be food, I did cut back on the feed for the last 3 weeks, possibly over fed them this last week as I change the food. Oscar I quite pick lately. Will vacuum again to be sure it's all good. I have 2 small amazon sword plants that I have just put in the tank last weekend, both seem healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 oscars are notoriously messy feeders, so I wouldnt be surprised if a large chunk of food has got lodged somewhere. also have you (or your oscar) moved anything around in the tank recently exposing a dead spot in the gravel. btw your 75L tank in your signature is seriously extremely over stocked He's generally good about finishing his food, either eats it all or just ignores it out rite. I'm quite aggressive in my tank cleaning, so most of the stone is moved at least once a week when I vacuum. Thanks for the advice on the 75, the 3 big ones (still small at the moment) are meant to move the the 300L tank, as soon as I can re home the Oscar and Placo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 A change in pH from 7 - 7.6 is a huge swing and, as zev said, would have caused the gasping. Remember is is a logarithmic scale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 If you have any nitrites then your tank's filter is not cycled fully, which in the context of a long established tank suggests a new cycle is occurring. Until you get the nitrites back to 0, salt can help alleviate the toxicity with chloride ions displacing nitrite. With nitrite of 0.5 ppm, you'd need a chloride concentrate of 2.5 ppm. I'm surprised that you don't see ammonia as well as ammonia appears first, and is more toxic. I presume that you've repeated the test a few times? Nitrite forms from ammonia so if your nitrite increased after the water change, there must have been some ammonia around for this to happen. What filtration are you running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 If you have any nitrites then your tank's filter is not cycled fully, which in the context of a long established tank suggests a new cycle is occurring. Until you get the nitrites back to 0, salt can help alleviate the toxicity with chloride ions displacing nitrite. With nitrite of 0.5 ppm, you'd need a chloride concentrate of 2.5 ppm. I'm surprised that you don't see ammonia as well as ammonia appears first, and is more toxic. I presume that you've repeated the test a few times? Nitrite forms from ammonia so if your nitrite increased after the water change, there must have been some ammonia around for this to happen. What filtration are you running? I have had issues with ammonia before, so I keep an eye on it, I check water before changes and id fish are sick, then I do it more often. I have 300L tank with Eheim classic 350 . I was advised that I should not clean my filter out as often as I was. I was replacing the white fiber filter at the top weekly and some time emptying out the "dirty" water and rising the media in water from the same tank. I didn't do this last week. Suppose this change in routine would result the tank to cycle. I have had varying advice on whats correct for this filter. A good question here is how often should the components be maintained ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I would suggest you're cleaning it way too frequently. You're trying to establish a microbial colony in the filter, and the only time you need to clean it is when the flow drops off. So, once every 3-6 months. The other time I would clean is if your nitrates go too high, while you also have zero ammonia and nitrite despite regular PWCs. High nitrates would suggest too much organic waste is then trapped in the canister which is then becoming a nitrate factory. Many filters also exaggerate their capacity. And since it seems that your filtration is insufficient based on the ammonia issues before, and nitrite now, I'd be inclined to add another filter ... such as a sponge filter driven by an air pump if you have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I would suggest you're cleaning it way too frequently. You're trying to establish a microbial colony in the filter, and the only time you need to clean it is when the flow drops off. So, once every 3-6 months. The other time I would clean is if your nitrates go too high, while you also have zero ammonia and nitrite despite regular PWCs. High nitrates would suggest too much organic waste is then trapped in the canister which is then becoming a nitrate factory. Many filters also exaggerate their capacity. And since it seems that your filtration is insufficient based on the ammonia issues before, and nitrite now, I'd be inclined to add another filter ... such as a sponge filter driven by an air pump if you have one. Lol the out let on my air pump broke last night when I was moving .. I'm getting a new one later today.. I have been wandering if the filter was big enough as there always seem to one or other issue, I have a fulval filter that's rated for 100L tank would that help. Can you recommend a sponge filter for my tank. Adding new filters will they cause cycling as they establish the bacteria when used in conjunction with the current one ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 It just a mini-cycle while your filter adjusts from being washed, keep up water changes remembering a few smaller changes are better than 1 big one... Test in a few days, if you still have Nitrite/nitrate readings as high or higher, could be another issue, such as over-feeding (most common). Your filter is about the minimum I would run on a tank that size, but shouldn't be that much of an issue to cause the levels to come up like that. Add the extra filter, It won't "cycle" as such, but will help keep flow up, and add water volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Something like this one http://www.sella.co.nz/general/pets-ani ... rs/d2vgm5/ They are weighted so won't float around. Although the Fluval would also help, the sponge filters act as biological filtration and are likely to have more biological surface than the Fluval. No, they can't cause cycling in the way I think you mean because cycling is caused by an excess of organic material over the nitrifying capacity. Here you are just adding more capacity ( well, eventually some microbes will colonise it from various surfaces inside your tank ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Something like this one http://www.sella.co.nz/general/pets-ani ... rs/d2vgm5/ They are weighted so won't float around. Although the Fluval would also help, the sponge filters act as biological filtration and are likely to have more biological surface than the Fluval. No, they can't cause cycling in the way I think you mean because cycling is caused by an excess of organic material over the nitrifying capacity. Here you are just adding more capacity ( well, eventually some microbes will colonise it from various surfaces inside your tank ). Thanks for the advise, I shall be following up on this . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 the tank is just getting going again after being cleaned. of course there going to be a cycle. sponge filters are not going to change that. Waterchanges for a week, re-test... Don't waste your money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 What is the recommended turnover for water in a tropical aquarium ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 2-3times water volume/hour, though many go past this, up to 10x isn't unheard of. Remember that the volume/hour on the box is usually 20-30% more than actual levels once you have media, some head height etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 2-3times water volume/hour, though many go past this, up to 10x isn't unheard of. Remember that the volume/hour on the box is usually 20-30% more than actual levels once you have media, some head height etc... Ok so my Classic 350 is just on the min as 620 L/H on a 300L tank , given I have no real plants in there to speak of (only 2 small ones just planted) to assist with waist management and all the fish are large, it's probably not coping. :facepalm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 It will cope fine, the bacteria grow everywhere in the tank, no just in the filter. like I said, you are on the bottom end of the scale, but I wouldn't stress about it just right now, do what you can with what you have... Add that extra filter, get some more plants, keep up the waterchanges, do some extra ones when you can remember, and just don't add any more fish till you get it all into balance again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 What is the recommended turnover for water in a tropical aquarium ? 2-3X is really minimal, 5ish is a good moderate amount. 10X is really nice. My tank is about average filtered 5X turnover through filters and about 15X of circulation pumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 It depends on the waste being generated. I've got a 160L tropical tank with a couple of angels and I only use a sponge filter, and an air driven DIY Kaldnes filter. For the cold water gold fish tank, I was running at 10x filtration per hour. If your tank spikes after cleaning your filter ( in tank water one assumes ), then the surfaces provided by the rest of the tank are providing insufficient filtration and you will need a second filter. Some filters have trays and you just clean one tray at a time, and not all of them at the same time which is like having multiple filters. Is that an option with yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 No. If the tank spikes after you clean the filter, and is otherwise fine, then aviod cleaningthe filter until you have to, and do some extra waterchanges for a couple weeks after the clean to combat the "spikes" until your levels even out. A bigger filter will not reduce spikes. The filter will help remove free-floating food and bits (mechanical filtration, which is where the turnover/hour comes in), provide extra surface area for your bacteria (biological filtration) though they will grow everywhere and anywhere... You could slap a FX5 on there and it would still have to cycle, with associated spikes, after a clean-out. Minimising disturbance will help, so cleaning a tray at a time like Graham suggests might help MINIMISE the spike, but will not cancel it out completely. Seriously, get a good water change regime, and do extras after you change the setup/stocking of your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbing80s Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 It depends on the waste being generated. I've got a 160L tropical tank with a couple of angels and I only use a sponge filter, and an air driven DIY Kaldnes filter. For the cold water gold fish tank, I was running at 10x filtration per hour. If your tank spikes after cleaning your filter ( in tank water one assumes ), then the surfaces provided by the rest of the tank are providing insufficient filtration and you will need a second filter. Some filters have trays and you just clean one tray at a time, and not all of them at the same time which is like having multiple filters. Is that an option with yours? Cleaning the media can be messy job with the Classic 350 as all the media is loose in the canister only separated by a sponge, the fine grain filter pad is at the top luckily. I'll be look for a bigger filter , given that I like my big fish in this tank. I'll also look at planting it out, this has been on the todo list but finding plants that look good in a 300L is not the easiest lol as most available are dwarfed by the size of the tank. Anyone got an opinion on http://www.trademe.co.nz/pets-animals/f ... 787606.htm its cheep .... does anyone have experience with sunsun products they can share ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuri08 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 yep sunsun ok filters but for a 300l tank it wouldnt cope u could get two of them and it would be ok id go for the larger sized model they are ok filters but that one ive had and would rate it for a 150 litre tank max unless as a secondary filter with ur one would be fine two externals would be good for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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