Varanophile Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Learnt something new today...... from: http://www.herpcenter.com/leopard-geckos/16317-calcium-powder.html "D3 is confusing and is debated often. It is believed that most reptiles can not absorb D3 from their food (or supplements). Truthfully though, this seems to have only been proven with diurnal basking species. Those critters that bask under the sun are absorbing pre-vitamin d3 into their bodies. (Which is then converted into pro-vitamin D3 and then finally D3.) Many of these animals can not absorb ingested D3. D3 is required for calcium absorption. If D3 isn't present in the body, calcium absorption doesn't take place. This is what leads to Metabolic Bone Disease and other calcium defficiency disorders. This is why diurnal basking species MUST have proper lighting that provides UVB. Nocturnal species however are a different ballgame all together. They have low UVB exposure in the wild. (Many nocturnal species actually come out at dusk when UVB levels are low but present and are also out at dawn when UVB levels are low but present.) Defining which species require and don't require D3 in their supplements is tricky as it would require independant research on every nocturnal species. I do not provide D3 for my Leopard Geckos. They are apparently one of the species that can ingest D3 and absorb it naturally. Providing additional D3 risks a toxic level. (D3 can be given in excess and can lead to toxicity.) I have never had an issue with my Leopard Geckos, and I have never offered supplemental D3 with their calcium." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 your the d3! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 your the d3! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrghhhhhhhhhh. dik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 yoooooooooooaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrreeeeee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 My understanding was that nocturnal lizards are very efficient in synthesizing D3 from the sparse UVB exposure they get. So, they also will require UVB lighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 My understanding was that nocturnal lizards are very efficient in synthesizing D3 from the sparse UVB exposure they get. So, they also will require UVB lighting. There is that theory but most of the experts say: Nocturnal reptiles can absorb D3 from their prey animals. Diurnal can't. Can't be sure until someone spends millions on examining metabolic pathways in reptiles...which aint likely. Bottom line...don't feed vitamin D to your leopards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Can't be sure until someone spends millions on examining metabolic pathways in reptiles...which aint likely. Actually it's quite simple to do. You just put some skin out from different reptiles and expose to UVB, and measure the result of how much 7-dehydrocholesterol gets converted to previtamin D3. From memory, this was done for humans by using foreskin obtained from circumcisions, and comparing D3 synthesis at different latitudes. But as you say, if the nocturnal reptiles get a bit of UVB, they don't need supplementation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Actually it's quite simple to do. You just put some skin out from different reptiles and expose to UVB, and measure the result of how much 7-dehydrocholesterol gets converted to previtamin D3. From memory, this was done for humans by using foreskin obtained from circumcisions, and comparing D3 synthesis at different latitudes. But as you say, if the nocturnal reptiles get a bit of UVB, they don't need supplementation. Anyone want to volunteer some of their animals? would be good to find out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 The experiment is already being carried out. Some people feed calcium with D3 and others feed without D3 I raised a number of young ones to adulthood using calcium in a dish without D3 and not added to food and they all turned out to be healthy breeding adults. A couple of their young developed metabolic bone disease so then I swithed to having a dish of calcium with D3 and adding it also to their live food. Have had no problems with young this year and it is almost finished. You pays your money and takes your pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 The experiment is already being carried out. Some people feed calcium with D3 and others feed without D3 I raised a number of young ones to adulthood using calcium in a dish without D3 and not added to food and they all turned out to be healthy breeding adults. A couple of their young developed metabolic bone disease so then I swithed to having a dish of calcium with D3 and adding it also to their live food. Have had no problems with young this year and it is almost finished. You pays your money and takes your pick. Are you feeding just one type of food? Leo's get their D3 from their food...apparently If you give them D3 calcium and food with D3 it can cause big problems. I have mate that gave his beardeds D3 and put them outside. It paralysed them. Their movements are still twitchy as, which is ironic as this is a symptom of not enough D3. If your young got metabloic bone disease then there must have been a reason- it is either caused by not enough calcium, or not enough D3 or both. This year I have half a dozen emerge from eggs with twisted back legs, which have thankfully come right...until now I have made no distinction between calcium with or without D3...I just buy whatever is available. What do you other leo breeders use and what have you seen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 This year I have half a dozen emerge from eggs with twisted back legs, which have thankfully come right...until now I have made no distinction between calcium with or without D3...I just buy whatever is available. a problem and a possible reason why all in one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 a problem and a possible reason why all in one other possible reasons too. hence the question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 They were fed a good mixed live insect diet and I have not seen that problem before or since. and no problems with this years babies being fed calcium with D3 either. It is possible there was one with a genetic predisposition to not utilising calcium but I have tracked the parents of each baby this season and have not seen a problem and they are the same parents as last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 has the level of stress, shaking, at the same stage of development been the same this season as the last one alan as too much stress causes the body to excrete calcium instead of absorbing it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 We are still getting plenty of shakes but not as bad as last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymox Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 All my leo's bask in the early morning and late evening. I provide the lighting and they use it. I believe that they know their requirements far more then we do. I offer calcium with d3 and without it. as well as other vitamins with and without d3. They very very rarely eat from the d3 dishes. I try to keep the diet as varied as possible, including insects that are active during the day and night. At night I provide reptile one moonlight tubes, the uvb is next to nothing but still present as verified by repti-one australia. They use it most nights so it must have some effect. I love watching that tail whip from side to side as a cricket or cockroach is about to loose its life. :gigl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 All my leo's bask in the early morning and late evening. I provide the lighting and they use it. I believe that they know their requirements far more then we do. I offer calcium with d3 and without it. as well as other vitamins with and without d3. They very very rarely eat from the d3 dishes. I try to keep the diet as varied as possible, including insects that are active during the day and night. At night I provide reptile one moonlight tubes, the uvb is next to nothing but still present as verified by repti-one australia. They use it most nights so it must have some effect. I love watching that tail whip from side to side as a cricket or cockroach is about to loose its life. :gigl: Wow, that is a really impressive system. You think thay sense which powder has the D3? when you say you provide lighting you mean fluoro tubes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymox Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 I wouldn't want to begin to even imagine why, I leave that up to them. Best thing I know is to provide them with everything I can think of to enrich their lives and let them do the rest. Yes its all from tubes, I replace them every 6 months or so when I notice they have stopped basking. I love my lil leo's and couldn't imagine anything but the best for them, So I try everything and if they take to it then it stays. Early morning feeds are usually much more accepted on a fussy leo then evening/night feedings for example, its just observation. I have pulled a few out of trouble now, letting them decide what is best has always been the most successful approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 I wouldn't want to begin to even imagine why, I leave that up to them. Best thing I know is to provide them with everything I can think of to enrich their lives and let them do the rest. Hats off to you. That is also my philosophy, especially with animals that are not domesticated. We can discuss the biomechanics all we want but at the end of the day, unless evidence-based research is conducted, it is best to use a pragmatic approach to ensure the best health and welfare for animals in our care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Hats off to you. That is also my philosophy, especially with animals that are not domesticated. We can discuss the biomechanics all we want but at the end of the day, unless evidence-based research is conducted, it is best to use a pragmatic approach to ensure the best health and welfare for animals in our care. So no rack and stack then? Seems to be the way alot of the leo keepers are going unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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