Why no Dart Frogs in NZ?

[alanmin4304]

This country like most others is a user pays society run by accountants trained at the Chicago school of economics. This being the case, if you wish to import frogs or any other animal and have them available to the public rather than only in confinement, you will need to present Erma and Maf with the paperwork they require to say yes or no. They are not there to do all the research and fill out the forms for you. I repeat---E.T would be easier to keep as a pet than a potentially highly poisonous frog carrying Chytrid.

[Devo]

That just about sums it up Alan...well put.

Now I'm thinking....ET and Komodos, in the same enclosure....I could sell tickets to ERMA & MAF :spop:

[Varanophile]

The licensing system, although a good idea for larger countries, probably wouldn't work because the numbers of people getting one in NZ wouldn't pay for the cost of running the system.

I don't agree. Take Perth in W.A as as example. 1.8 million people in total. Prob the same ammount of keepers as NZ.

They have this system:

You need a license to keep reptiles/frogs, you pay a fee each year for it, around $50.00

License can be class 1, 2 or 3. Class depends on the difficulty of the species to keep. If you wnat to move up a class you need to have had a license for the previous class for at least 12 months....or get someone with that class of license to vouch for you.

You need to file a return every year detailing the species you have, the sexes if known, and any births and deaths.

Excessive deaths then you lose your license.

When you sell an animal you fill out paperwork with license numbers etc for the buyer, and the buyer fill out paperwork for you and you both send in

The authority takes a percentage, say 5% of each sale and they have the right to inspect your animals at any time during reasonable hours.

This system not only pays for itself, but it funds research and conservation too.

We don't know the internal systems of MAF, it's a pretty big ministry. They don't ask for funding, they get assigned a portion of budget.

Not true. MAF has to be seen to be prudent about working within their budget. The budget is assigned based on spend the previous year. If MAF has a number of investigations that can be seen to be in the public interest and they cost lots of money then it helps them secure additional funding the following year.

One person who doesn't know how maf works will get nothing done. It takes a large organisation eg. one NZ organisation wanted to bring in dung beetles from overseas to do what dung beetles do. The university research said that we already have ~11 species of native dung beetle, research said it's pointless to bring the exotics in. Federated farmers and other large organisations objected to the exotics. Maf reluctantly said yes. Now we have an invasive exotic dung beetle that isn't doing what the original group wanted and it's now competing with the native.

Agreed. Don't think that MAF is there to do a good job. Like all government org's it is political....full of back stabbing and dodgy goings on in the name of ladder climbing. They have planted evidence, they have lied under oath in court. MAF is all about the guys at the top and being seen to do a good job- it's all PR. There are plenty of smart people with good intentions that join and then leave after being disillusioned by the crap pay and politicing. I know at least 3. The top guys are on good pay and they are the 'shot callers'...and they did not get there because they wrote some mean as research papers. The ONLY way MAF will listen to us if if we have enough hobbyists and can exert some lobbying pressure. I will happily supply Peter Jackoson or Kim Dot Com a lizard for free to this end.

It's not rocket science, no kidding, it's ecological science, which works on a much bigger scale with far more variables and less known about it.

You probably need a degree to work for MAF on anything you want to influence.

Is there a system and clear cut regulations on what reptiles you can keep in NZ..............NO Yes, it's called a whitelist, If it's on the list you can have it.

If you consider all the undiscovered species and the ones that haven't been researched for their effect on the NZ environment, It's far easier to whitelist.

Whitelist...bollocks...prove me wrong tho.... The only list that has been around is this 'unofficial list' from ERMA, May 2005. This is a draft document and is in its original form to the best of my knowledge:

Then, on Jan 4th this year, this came out, it is from the Animal Import Group, which is a division of MAF...I am guessing that MAF proper is unaware of it and did not approve it- its contradicts everything they have said to date.....but now its out in th epublic domain (so sorry guys)

To put it in context this is the email, edited (2 names left out as well as the sender's name), that came with it. The sender is from an NZ Zoo, which is probably why he got the info as the 'walls did noy go up':

"Good afternoon Blah and Blah

I would just like to say thank you both for your help with this. Sorry it has taken so long.

EPA have sent the attached document to me, based on the import permits we were provided with.

They agree that there can be individuals of the species listed in the letter that are legally held in New Zealand, in private hands. Please do note though that this does not mean that every individual animal of a given species in the country will necessarily be here legally as there could be some that had been smuggled in and not associated with the import permit from the early 1970s.

Thanks once again"

Who should be in charge of creating one............................MAFAnd universities and DOC

Has it been suggested...............................YES

Would it be hard to do...........................NOExtremely, Each species has to be checked out

Don't agree. There is plenty of study that has been done on most species of repltile on both those lists above. The key thing is can they breed in the wild here...just look at the required incubation temps and get NZ's soil temp data from NIWA- they have all that info. Obviously even though salties can't brred here they can't be let it- common sense applies though.

In terms of importing new stuff, rather than not knowing how to test it and what to test it for, just copy what other countries do:

Create a list of pathogens on reptiles based on country of origin...NOT on species. Any animal that comes from a country gets tested for the diseases from that country and is quarantined first- WE ALREADY DO THIS WITH FISH!!! The importer pays for this...Not like currently where you stump up 20K for a risk assessment which gets declined and MAF keeps your coin.

There is no reason we should not be allowed iguanas, day geckos, tokay geckos..........NONE

MAF has made Leopard Torts 'containment only'...even though the amle that was donated to the zoo to breed with the females was donated from a member of the NZ public. MAF's reasoning is that the females were seized from a smuggler so could have diseases.....WELL test them then!!!!

In recent times the Leopard Torts are in public hands and MAF has not jumped on it...........probably waiting until they have been sold on Trade Me for a few months..then they can have an expensive round up of them...sound familiar- iguanagate.

Shinglebacks are containment only too says MAF.....ooops noone told the Import Animal Group tho...bugger- (see the tiliqua rugosus on there)

Would it take long/cost alot of money.............NO x 2It would cost hundreds of millions to create a blacklist.

Not if you do it as above. Sure MAF agrees with you though.

What can we do to change it........................bitch about it on the forum Or go to Uni, do postgrad and help with the research and get something done.

Won't work as per the reasons above. If enough of you agree that we need change then we can make it happen...it'll be a long road though. MAF needs to be pressured to create a sysytem so that we all know where we stand. How many of you had your iguanas killed? Do you realise the exact same thing could have happened with your leopard geckos....that is until the above list from Jan 4th was made public....they have been in grey area until now.

[ExotherMan]

Well put varanophile.

Its all economics and this just simply isnt anywhere near a priority for MAF to invest resources in. More support is really the only way to change that.

And CrunchBang... university and research is good enough, but there is only so much that can be taught in a classroom... life experience being a factor often lacking from graduates especially when their current opinions are often limited by the environment for which they have based their learning. Your not wrong though, ecology and environmental science are still largely poorly understood fields and incredibly complex particularly in terms of making predictions around environmental systems. The more knowledge gained in such a field the better.

[#!CrunchBang]

<-click on the picture for amusement

[alanmin4304]

It is not for Erma or Maf to do the research and fill out the forms. They are approval authorities --they say yes or no based on the application that you make.

[ExotherMan]

MAF are moving towards being more advisory focused, but solely approval authorities? No.

They do actually do plenty of research, see Technical papers. Usually literary reviews but none the less research used to develop policies. Absolutely the forms and other work needs to be put forward to them in order for new policy to be developed in the area we would want (ie. a herptile IHS), meanwhile they have plenty other areas to tackle and many other IHSs for which there is demand.

I don't think its fair to say MAF are lazy, our wants are just not a priority.

[alanmin4304]

Have to agree. They were not lazy when they turned up at my place enquiring about a plant that I bought off trademe that had been smuggled unbeknown to me.

[Varanophile]

MAF are moving towards being more advisory focused, but solely approval authorities? No.

They do actually do plenty of research, see Technical papers. Usually literary reviews but none the less research used to develop policies. Absolutely the forms and other work needs to be put forward to them in order for new policy to be developed in the area we would want (ie. a herptile IHS), meanwhile they have plenty other areas to tackle and many other IHSs for which there is demand.

I don't think its fair to say MAF are lazy, our wants are just not a priority.

You seem pretty on to it Exotherman....so:

How do you think 'we' can change the current policies on reptile keeping.

Why are tropical fish and non tropical allowed to be imported...surely white cloud minnows could establish here?

When there are as many reptile keepers as fish keepers is that the point there will be change?

If we can prove having a system will generate income for the authorities would they do it?

[sneaky2]

not according to the last person i spoke to from maf. i was told they wernt interested in making more work for themselves as they were overworked as it was.the impression i got from them was out of sight out of mind.

[#!CrunchBang]

although I can clearly see the reason for no amphibians being imported (global fungus epidemic), why can't we get chameleons?

[Varanophile]

although I can clearly see the reason for no amphibians being imported (global fungus epidemic), why can't we get chameleons?

or why can't we those that are already here.

Prob. because they are a pest in hawaii- but anyone with any knowledge will argue against their ability to naturalise here.

You can keep Jackson's chameleon in southern france which has similar seasons and temp to here and there has been no problem with them naturalising.

There are some in public anyway I hear ex WLG zoo....same way the leo's were ex Otorohanga Kiwi House.

[repto]

could you try the argument if we can have eastern water dragons,why not jackson`s chameleons?

[jc254]

there is zero point in arguing or debating with MAF... no ifs and no buts... Want these reptiles so bad? I suggest you look at stumping up the cash on getting IHS completed.

Or get a containment licence/zoo licence... import the reptiles with a IHS then apply through erma for a general release... both routes will cost $$$

I bet people in Auz or America would kill to keep some of our natives found in our backyards so its not a one way st

Guess its better to protect what we have then spend millions trying to fix a stuff up...

[sneaky2]

there is zero point in arguing or debating with MAF... no ifs and no buts... Want these reptiles so bad? I suggest you look at stumping up the cash on getting IHS completed.

Or get a containment licence/zoo licence... import the reptiles with a IHS then apply through erma for a general release... both routes will cost $$$

I bet people in Auz or America would kill to keep some of our natives found in our backyards so its not a one way st

Guess its better to protect what we have then spend millions trying to fix a stuff up...

horse has alrerady bolted e.g stoats, ferrits,cats,dogs,possums,hedghogs,pigs,kukaburras,rats,mice aaaaaaaand people e.c.t :facepalm: .

[Varanophile]

could you try the argument if we can have eastern water dragons,why not jackson`s chameleons?

15 years ago both Jackson's and Water Dragons were only in zoos, so yeah...good point why are water dragons in public hands but jackson's not. The problem is not just regulations that don't make sense but the inconsistency in the way the rules are applied.

[Varanophile]

there is zero point in arguing or debating with MAF... no ifs and no buts... Want these reptiles so bad? I suggest you look at stumping up the cash on getting IHS completed.

Or get a containment licence/zoo licence... import the reptiles with a IHS then apply through erma for a general release... both routes will cost $$$

I bet people in Auz or America would kill to keep some of our natives found in our backyards so its not a one way st

Guess its better to protect what we have then spend millions trying to fix a stuff up...

I don't think anyone is arguing or debating with MAF here- people are just pointing out the flaws in the system and debating how the system can be changed.

Getting IHS's completed ain't going to accomplish jack- we've covered that already.

ERMA/MAF don't just hand out zoo licenses...you would need to be a zoo, not a hobbyist.

People in the US and Europe do keep our natives...best chance they have IMO in terms of some of species not going extinct. Harlequin gecko's are CITES 1 but there is noone keeping them here as DOC doesn't give licenses to keep them. Too many native reptiles are on the edge but the native reptile hobby is pretty small here due to the restrictive regulations...we are not doing a great job protecting what we have here....any of you exotic keepers have experience with the native stuff?

[Nymox]

There is a massive ongoing argument in the scientific community about the collection and captive breeding of any species of animal in order to study and save them. It really is a more or less 50/50 split, some like myself believe captive breeding and study is the only real way to completely understand an animal, as the complexity of studying everything in the field and the costs related is just not viable. Others believe they are best left alone and studied from a distance, and all studies done in captivity are invalid as they restrict the animals ability to exhibit natural behaviour.

Breeding also has equally as many arguments, for example, in the wild the animals that are stronger then their rivals are going to go on to reproduce more often, where the weaker ones either don't make it to adulthood, or lack the characteristics to find a mate. Captive breeding has no natural selection process, so on release even animals with weaker genetic traits are strong and fit enough to compete with the better adapted, effectively messing with the gene pool in wild populations.

I agree with both sides :nilly:

[herperjosh]

although I can clearly see the reason for no amphibians being imported (global fungus epidemic), why can't we get chameleons?

I dont see why you would want a chameleon they dont do well in captivity and are very hard to keep and they become stressed easily :dunno:

[jc254]

I don't think anyone is arguing or debating with MAF here- people are just pointing out the flaws in the system and debating how the system can be changed.

Getting IHS's completed ain't going to accomplish jack- we've covered that already.

ERMA/MAF don't just hand out zoo licenses...you would need to be a zoo, not a hobbyist.

People in the US and Europe do keep our natives...best chance they have IMO in terms of some of species not going extinct. Harlequin gecko's are CITES 1 but there is noone keeping them here as DOC doesn't give licenses to keep them. Too many native reptiles are on the edge but the native reptile hobby is pretty small here due to the restrictive regulations...we are not doing a great job protecting what we have here....any of you exotic keepers have experience with the native stuff?

well you need a IHS to get anywhere so i would say this is the most important part of the process. no IHS, no importing. Its as simple as that.

Importing into a zoo/containment facility is easier then into private hands. I never said getting the licence would be easy.

keeping natives is a delicate subject; is their was no regulations on endangered specices then anyone and everyone could own/take them from the wild. This was DOC can at least regulate the who has what and how many. Its not hard to get a licence anyway.

if you want these animals so bad i suggest you move to Auz or the US. Better chances of getting them there than ever seeing them here.

Not only that when these animals arrive here the price tags that people would be asking would be outrageous so doubt most people would ever be able to afford them anyway.

[Varanophile]

I dont see why you would want a chameleon they dont do well in captivity and are very hard to keep and they become stressed easily :dunno:

Most of them are very easy to keep and they do well in captivity. Do you have any experience with them- what have you based your opinion on?

[Varanophile]

There is a massive ongoing argument in the scientific community about the collection and captive breeding of any species of animal in order to study and save them. It really is a more or less 50/50 split, some like myself believe captive breeding and study is the only real way to completely understand an animal, as the complexity of studying everything in the field and the costs related is just not viable. Others believe they are best left alone and studied from a distance, and all studies done in captivity are invalid as they restrict the animals ability to exhibit natural behaviour.

Breeding also has equally as many arguments, for example, in the wild the animals that are stronger then their rivals are going to go on to reproduce more often, where the weaker ones either don't make it to adulthood, or lack the characteristics to find a mate. Captive breeding has no natural selection process, so on release even animals with weaker genetic traits are strong and fit enough to compete with the better adapted, effectively messing with the gene pool in wild populations.

I agree with both sides :nilly:

Really good point. You are right, there are pro's and con's to both sides of the argument. DOC leans strongly towards the 'leaving alone theory'....however once an animal is extinct, its game over until we learn how to clone from DNA I guess. Otago Skinks, Harlequin Gecko's...sure that there are other's but I don't know my natives that well... are pretty screwed unless they are kept in captivity. Maybe a couple of hundred years down the track they can be released back into the wild once we have dealt with the predation and habitat issue. Understandably DOC frowns upon keepers crossing sub species and creating forms that don't exist in nature, and this is an inevitable consequence of trusting the future of species to keepers......but at least species will have a chance. It is more than likely that in our life times Otago Skinks and Harlequin Geckos will be completely extinct unless they are captive bred.

If it was easier to keep natives I wonder how many of us would be keeping the exotics? We have some pretty awesome native stuff...fish and reptiles.

[Varanophile]

well you need a IHS to get anywhere so i would say this is the most important part of the process. no IHS, no importing. Its as simple as that.

Importing into a zoo/containment facility is easier then into private hands. I never said getting the licence would be easy.

keeping natives is a delicate subject; is their was no regulations on endangered specices then anyone and everyone could own/take them from the wild. This was DOC can at least regulate the who has what and how many. Its not hard to get a licence anyway.

if you want these animals so bad i suggest you move to Auz or the US. Better chances of getting them there than ever seeing them here.

Not only that when these animals arrive here the price tags that people would be asking would be outrageous so doubt most people would ever be able to afford them anyway.

:facepalm: missing the point dude. I want the system changed. Stop suggesting people move to Aus or the US!! Taking endangered species from the wild? No....just do it the way they do it in Aussie- only registered collectors can take animals from the wild, and then keepers buy from stock bred from these- pretty easy to regulate if you have a system (like the one mentioned earlier in WA). Price tags are always determined by the market- look at beardies, leo's, water d's.........you still looking to work for MAF? You'll fit in well with the current modus operandi.

[broms2]

Isn't the Aussie permit system based solely on keeping natives? - no exotics.. legally

[Varanophile]

Isn't the Aussie permit system based solely on keeping natives? - no exotics.. legally

yep, it sure is. but it would work for exotics too.