herperjosh Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 Most of them are very easy to keep and they do well in captivity. Do you have any experience with them- what have you based your opinion on? experienced people saying so aswell as bioligists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 Australia would be more restrictive on exotic reptiles than NZ would it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 Australia would be more restrictive on exotic reptiles than NZ would it not? you can't keep exotics in Aussie. Easy to keep the natives so no need to import to cater for reptile keepers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broms2 Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 so... why do we need exotics in NZ? we do have a good range of natives that can be kept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 :slfg: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 dart frogs would be neat. would like to see more focus on natives. open trade for permit holders. only reason for permit is to stop taking from wild. reason for trade is to build up populations but more so awareness of native animals as oppose to exotics. we grow up knowing of tuatara but what about the many other reptiles and our native frogs !drool: . . .very few are lucky enough to have ever seen them. encouraging export could relieve some strain on wild populations from the black market. i think the natives could almost replace some if not all demand for any more exotics. at present demand for exotics is only getting bigger and bigger. about 200 people :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 Encouraging export would put a massive strain on our wild native populations, that is why it is banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 from permit holders/captive bred stock in order to help curb demand for illegitimate export of wild stock that is already going on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broms2 Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 from permit holders/captive bred stock in order to help curb demand for illegitimate export of wild stock that is already going on I think the system as it stands would be fine if governed correctly, I used to be a fan of being able to breed natives for sale but have changed my attitude as of late and now prefer the current set up, it encourages pure enthusiasts not people just trying to make a buck. I do beleive that if DOC provided more experienced keepers wild stock of dwindling species with the aim of releasing back into the wild there would be many with their hands up to help. If the government wanted to curb the smuggling it would set high penalties and make it not worth the risk for most - instead of a slap on the wrist! Just my thoughts on permit systems etc. by the way Dart frogs, iguanas, chameleons etc are very nice, if I find myself living in a country one day I will definately be keeping them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcculloch Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 I think the system as it stands would be fine if governed correctly I agree for the natives I didn't find it exceptionally hard to get a permit. As for the exotics I would like to see an amnesty for the stuff that's already here with a disease screening proviso in place. Then an actual list of what is allowed after that so that we know and maf knows clearly whats legal and what is not and the hobby could move on. Probably never gonna happen I know instead we have MAFia. I would keep a Chameleon in a heartbeat have always wanted to. Apart from the disease risk the argument that exotic reptiles are dangerous to our native reptiles is basically a joke especially while everyone's kitty's are out every night eating our fauna it doesn't hold up at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broms2 Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Apart from the disease risk the argument that exotic reptiles are dangerous to our native reptiles is basically a joke especially while everyone's kitty's are out every night eating our fauna it doesn't hold up at all. yep, but they are so cute :facepalm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devo Posted April 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Anyone here into native plants? If so you'll know the name Graeme Platt. Graeme was a very keen and knowledgeable plants-man, he had a passion for our native plants, and he wanted to see them used in much more in landscaping. He was known for his ability to find unusual clones of native plants, and he introduced these via the Albany nursery that he ran for many years. I did a course with Graeme, and one phrase he often used that has stuck with me is..."Use it or lose it". Graeme wanted people to grow and to enjoy our native plants, not have them only on display in botanical gardens, or in museums. I think this kind of attitude is needed in respect of our native fauna. I would happily pass on Dart Frogs for now, if I could keep our native frogs, and tuatara :happy2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 There is a massive ongoing argument in the scientific community about the collection and captive breeding of any species of animal in order to study and save them. It really is a more or less 50/50 split, some like myself believe captive breeding and study is the only real way to completely understand an animal, as the complexity of studying everything in the field and the costs related is just not viable. Others believe they are best left alone and studied from a distance, and all studies done in captivity are invalid as they restrict the animals ability to exhibit natural behaviour. Breeding also has equally as many arguments, for example, in the wild the animals that are stronger then their rivals are going to go on to reproduce more often, where the weaker ones either don't make it to adulthood, or lack the characteristics to find a mate. Captive breeding has no natural selection process, so on release even animals with weaker genetic traits are strong and fit enough to compete with the better adapted, effectively messing with the gene pool in wild populations. yea but in the wild the weaker animals move away and cross with other animals and by that rational would have led eventualy to hybridisation before humans cut the forests down,which would lead to more genitic material some good some bad, isint that evolution....point im trying to make is why focus on a gene pool of say 20 square ks if way back then there were no roads,citys e.c.t maby colonys of wild geckos are now inbred due to lack of teritory. last i herd while doc were trying to sort out a breeding program for otago skinks they called a halt on all captive breeding.they messed around for 2 years to try and come up with a system.in that time one of the known wild colonys became extinct! isnt some live animals (captive or wild) better than none...in an environment where change is the only constant(global warming,human development,polution)e.c.t would not a bigger gene pool lead to more chance of survival due to mutation.some good some bad :dunno: 800 or so years of human intervention has to of had some impact! s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc254 Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 I think you need to move on from this idea of a permit system. It will never happen, NZ doesnt sustain a population of reptile keepers to support this. To run a system like this it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars annually, plus start up costs ect, plus new laws ect... We will never see these animals, not in the immediate years anyway. The market would be tied in anyway. You would have a very select few that could afford to do this... they hold the cards on what they sell and at what price... If i remember correctly you didn't sell female leos for a few seasons to make sure you got max coin and to keep the price as high as possible. Now try that with someone who is operating a business. You may never be able to obtain females. Thus the market price will remain in the thousands. Chameleons are known for their difficulty and not adapting well to captive conditions. Also varo you would probably never be granted a import licence due to the fact that you have been on the inside of a court room for smuggling and I would make a epic MAF worker thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnaM Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Interesting discussion! My point would be...what about when that reptile becomes unwell? How do we get it treated? Just the basic 'been around awhile' turtles are given inadequate vet care in many parts of the country. Bearded Dragons and now Water Dragons are being sold in increasing numbers and usually due to inadequate knowledge on their care are becoming unwell. But the follow-up veterinary support is pretty non-existent. Case in point of the burnt turtle I received a couple of weeks ago. The people who had been given the turtle rang MANY vets in CHCH, none who would see a turtle or could give them any advice on where to get it treated. I guess they could have turned up somewhere and had a vet read some books or search on line for answers, but if I've paid thousands of dollars for a reptile, I'd want a knowledgeable vet to turn to if something started to go wrong. :dunno: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 massey vets should be able to help? pretty sure there are a few around the country that have experience with reptiles. i think the problem is with lack of education and very likely a lack of responsibility in most cases. most turtles requiring vet treatment seem to have had inadequate care. vets can only try and fix the problem. i think it is the cause that really needs addressing. advice from two turtle suppliers on tm is a bit of a joke at the best of times. imagine what impact they could have over a couple of decades or more. do we lobby to ban turtles because a few muppets fail to provide appropriate care for them. or do we try educate people and continue to give the future generations the chance to keep turtles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 I think the system used here for permits to keep natives is good. Can't sell (legally) so only atracts people who do it for pleasure rather than loot. Look what some people do with fish at the moment. Will breed anything to anything to get something to sell. Will be the same with native reptiles if it becomes commercial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 I think you need to move on from this idea of a permit system. It will never happen, NZ doesnt sustain a population of reptile keepers to support this. To run a system like this it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars annually, plus start up costs ect, plus new laws ect... We will never see these animals, not in the immediate years anyway. The market would be tied in anyway. You would have a very select few that could afford to do this... they hold the cards on what they sell and at what price... If i remember correctly you didn't sell female leos for a few seasons to make sure you got max coin and to keep the price as high as possible. Now try that with someone who is operating a business. You may never be able to obtain females. Thus the market price will remain in the thousands. Chameleons are known for their difficulty and not adapting well to captive conditions. Also varo you would probably never be granted a import licence due to the fact that you have been on the inside of a court room for smuggling and I would make a epic MAF worker thank you Maybe read the thread from the start- already covered the angle of not enough keepers, cost etc....bollocks dude. Chameleons- piece of cake to keep: veiled, panther...........well no more difficult than other 'specialist' reptiles. The key is to do it right: http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=cxWLIC6ZvxUC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=easy+to+keep+chameleon+species&source=bl&ots=SS33UrETfL&sig=EUZRi2NmpM1F3MaM2lTZBDM_8AE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6Bt9T_bqNqaOiAeZ8NWNCQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=easy%20to%20keep%20chameleon%20species&f=false Problem with many keepers is that don't do their research first, e.g: people who don't believe in brumating box torts as it stresses them out..........jesus :facepalm: And, yeah I agree you would be the bomb for MAF. And again, don't talk crap on a public forum, I have never been in a courtroom for smuggling, or convicted of any crime......you are a slow learner dude. Get your boxies in the fridge!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 from permit holders/captive bred stock in order to help curb demand for illegitimate export of wild stock that is already going on Bingo!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 so... why do we need exotics in NZ? we do have a good range of natives that can be kept. You can only get species that other people will trade with you. If you want to keep anything more interesting than forest geckos, elegans or stellatus you are really pushing uphill. The Herp Society used to be the same as most of the other animal clubs- all about having the coolest collection, those with the wicked stuff want to hold on to it. The licensing of reptile keeping in Aus is based on whether you have the expertise to keep an animal, not on who you know. Check out: http://www.smuggled.com/s1rev1.htm Excerpt: SMUGGLED : THE UNDERGROUND TRADE IN AUSTRALIA'S WILDLIFE (1993) WRITTEN BY: RAYMOND HOSER PUBLISHED BY: APOLLO BOOKS (REPRINTED BY KOTABI IN 1997) ISBN 0 947068 18X (PAPERBACK) PRICE : $22.50 (excluding postage) If you have ever been interested in finding out more about the illegal trade in wildlife this book is definitely for you. The author provides a concise history of wildlife smuggling over the last 20 years. He names the people who, at one time or another, have contributed - either directly or indirectly - to the trade in wildlife and shows the connection with other countries. Also included are some details on smuggling rackets in other countries, especially the trade in wildlife products (skins, folk medicines, ivory, etc). He concludes with some suggestions which he believes may offer hope for conserving wildlife. He argues for the legalisation of trade in wildlife on the grounds that prices would drop and that the trade could be regulated by a permit system. The N.S.W. National Parks and Wildlife Service attempted to ban this book in May 1993, however, the N.S.W. Minister for the Environment, the Hon. Chris Hartcher, publicly ordered that the ban be lifted (ABC 730 Report, 29th June, 1993). This book is an excellent read for anyone wanting to learn about the negative effects of smuggling, the level of corruption in high places or simply in the animals themselves. Whether or not you agree with Hoser's final argument, that wildlife trade should be legalised, this book provides a wealth of information and is written in an easy going style. I personally could not put the book down once I had started - a brilliant piece of investigative journalism and a book that 1 highly recommend to our members Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Anyone here into native plants? If so you'll know the name Graeme Platt. Graeme was a very keen and knowledgeable plants-man, he had a passion for our native plants, and he wanted to see them used in much more in landscaping. He was known for his ability to find unusual clones of native plants, and he introduced these via the Albany nursery that he ran for many years. I did a course with Graeme, and one phrase he often used that has stuck with me is..."Use it or lose it". Graeme wanted people to grow and to enjoy our native plants, not have them only on display in botanical gardens, or in museums. I think this kind of attitude is needed in respect of our native fauna. I would happily pass on Dart Frogs for now, if I could keep our native frogs, and tuatara :happy2: Very well put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc254 Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Maybe read the thread from the start- already covered the angle of not enough keepers, cost etc....bollocks dude. Chameleons- piece of cake to keep: veiled, panther...........well no more difficult than other 'specialist' reptiles. The key is to do it right: http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=cxWLIC6ZvxUC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=easy+to+keep+chameleon+species&source=bl&ots=SS33UrETfL&sig=EUZRi2NmpM1F3MaM2lTZBDM_8AE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6Bt9T_bqNqaOiAeZ8NWNCQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=easy%20to%20keep%20chameleon%20species&f=false Problem with many keepers is that don't do their research first, e.g: people who don't believe in brumating box torts as it stresses them out..........jesus :facepalm: And, yeah I agree you would be the bomb for MAF. And again, don't talk crap on a public forum, I have never been in a courtroom for smuggling, or convicted of any crime......you are a slow learner dude. Get your boxies in the fridge!!!!! according to mum if a fast learner :slfg: but who knows ay... these threads pop up every couple of months with someone wanting something not here and the discussion always ends in the same answers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcculloch Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 these threads pop up every couple of months with someone wanting something not here and the discussion always ends in the same answers... What about wanting some thing that is here but you want to stay within the law. :dunno: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 What about wanting some thing that is here but you want to stay within the law. :dunno: stay within the law...unless you are rich and can afford good lawyers for a long time...unless of course its a komodo or poison dart frog .. in which case worth the risk in my opinion. :facepalm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 If my understanding is correct, NZ has a similar system of permits for keeping reptiles as they have in Australia. They have a permit system to keep their native reptiles and we have a pemit system to keep our native reptiles. The difference is that they are not allowed exotics but we are allowed a restricted number and it is not clear which ones they are. Their natives are our exotics but I don't think our natives are their exotics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.