Sophia Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 On Sunday afternoon I made a divider for the CPD breeding tank using existing aquarium safe perpex and lining the edges with rubber to make a good seal. Yesterday my 2 fry had disappeared and the adults were not very hungry and a little slow moving but not altered enough for me to take much notice. Just now I have found the snails are at the waterline and the adults are definitely sick - almost stationary except for an occasional flaring of the fins and not moving away when I look at them. One of them is floating about without much control of herself. So I have removed the offending rubber and done a 40% water change with stresscoat added. I have moved the airstone into the breeding box and circulated the fresh water around very well. I was worried about shocking them further so am not sure if I can do a full water change or not - need advice on what to do next please, other than to stop slapping my forehead like this :facepalm: :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Just keep water changes up, do them every couple hours even at 20% or so if you want to minimise shock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 some rubbers can leach oil you could try airline tubing to do a slow siphon in and out of the tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Put another airline in as well if you have one available - the only time my snails have ever gone to the top is when the oxygen levels are low and the tank is out of whack. I have spare airpumps here if you need one. IMO - if they have been poisoned you are not going to lose anything by doing a full water change - at least the toxins will be out of the water and that is going to be less damaging to their systems. Just watch out for a likely ammonia spike in 7-10 days time if you do it. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 yes, but the sudden shock of 100% water change may be enough to push them over the edge... Gently gently I say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'll do another 40% change or so in a little while after dinner. They have an airstone and a box filter going so there is air pumping in at both ends, it seems like heaps in a little tank. The snails were already starting to perk up after the change, and so were a couple of the others - hopefully as it took a couple of days to take hold it's not TOO serious. will update shortly thanks for the quick replies too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 It's looking better in there - the fish that was having the most trouble has regained some control and is now up the right way, just a little bit sunken in the tail end. The other 4 vary from being a little better than that to moving about almost normally. Have swapped out another 5-6 litres. It's about a 25 litre tank. Will do another one before I go to bed and check them again in the morning. Poor fish. This was because I was trying to give them more room to by dividing the tank but do it in such a way to seal it well so as to keep the fry together. I think I will have to revert to using the original divider with the sucky cups and content myself with roaming fry. :an!gry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 and there is a mosquito larvae in there doing fine - I presume because it can breathe above the water level? :sml2: I will know they have recovered when the larvae gets chomped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I could move them to their original home tank - in a net box so I can keep an eye on them... or too much shock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Have you put a filter with activated charcoal in it to clear out any residual toxins/oils? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 No, I don't have any carbon. The most affected fish is now having 'nap' on it's side but the others are no worse. I will take out another 5 litres and then I will leave them alone for the night. The biggest snail is now moving around again at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Did another 5 litre WC before work this morning. 1 fish seems to be quite dead, another is quite good and moving about quite normally, and the other 3 are in between. Looks like I could lose another fish or 2 at most. Snails are still mooching about in a snail-ish fashion. Without knowing if it was a chemical reaction with the rubber depleting the oxygen (is that a reality?), and/or toxins leeching out, do you think I should get some carbon and put it in the filter? If not, do I need to take the tank down to remove any supposed residue or will frequent water changes most likely solve the problem? Should I get some sort of wunder tonic or other remedy to help them recover? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Water changes will get rid of any toxins, be cheap and it will happen gradually. It is unlikely to be lack of oxygen and more likely something being leached from the rubber. In a previous life I worked as a rubber technician in the compound room of a general rubber goods factory and there are a lot of additives in rubber products. The safest thing would be to use food grade products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Carbon is cheap and should clear the toxins. Also check the surface of the water to see if there is an oil film on top. You could keep on with the water changes but if there is an oil or toxin adhering to their gills etc, then continuous cleansing with carbon as well can only help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 ok, thanks to both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueether Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 I too have worked in PVC, no not that kind of work... Not many of the aditives didn't have warnings on them like: There wont be just oils that leech either , there are a lot of things that can go into rubberised PVC Sorry to hear about the lost fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 I too have worked in PVC, no not that kind of work... DO TELL........ This afternoon's update is that there were 3 definitely dead when I got home, another thinking about it and the one that has been quite good. I may have further upset the 2 remaining fish as I moved them to the CPD display tank in the net box thinking that good mature water would be healing for them but that doesn't seem to have helped and possibly made them worse. :-? I might have double-noobed them. I think I made a new slogan. Double noob: mistake caused by ignorance exacerbated by trying to fix with more ignorance Now I had better leave them alone until they die or get better. Have done a 70% wc on the original tank but now I'm worried about starting a new breeding project in there. Could there be toxin in the filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 I would not claim to know much about PVC but I think the plasticizing agent they use is dimethylthalate which may be toxic to fish but is put on the skin of humans as an insect repellant called DIMP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 may have irritated their gill membranes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Toxic to fish; 50 ppm leads to 50% mortality in 72 hours. Seems to be a CNS depressant, and likely causes some necrosis to both piscine liver and muscle cells. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651302922128 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 The question is: Are we talking pvc or rubber? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 black rubber seal, the sort you get on car windows and the like. in all the dead fish they all looked reasonably normal, no red gills - in any case I expect the last 2 will be dead by the time I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Some rubber used for sealing against water ingress is impregnated with an algal inhibitor which is highly toxic to fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 It wont be dimp but it could be any number of other things. Silicone seals as used in the food industry for ovens and fridges would be OK. What I have done in the past is glue a couple of thin strips of glass down front, back and base then slide glass in between. I have one at the moment to divide a reptile cage and it can be removed if required. Use silicone to glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted January 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Indeed those were options, was also going to get a new bigger tank, divide them with glass and drill holes as per my previous thread but I was trying to do it cheaply and alter an existing tank without having to take it down and dry it etc. In any case it's all over now. Last 2 fish were still alive just now, but their tail ends had developed white cottony fungus and they were very limp. They are now resting in the big aquarium in the sky after a dose of clove oil. I think even the 2 snails are packing it in as well, they took longer to look affected but now they look like they are closing shop too. So in total I've done about a 40-50% WC, 3 x 20%, a 60-70% - do you think that is safe enough to put fish in again or should I do carbon in the filter first to be safe? I wish to err on the side of safety after this stink episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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