Dropsy

[Carriej]

Hi.

One of my customers has had a problem with dropsy. I have told him to destroy the fish in question, to try to reduce the chance of it spreading. (he did not have a quarantine tank) I am pretty sure that there is no way to treat dropsy. unfortuneately he wanted me to be able to tell him the causes, and I did not feel confident enough in my knowledge to try to explain what the causes were.

I believe that dropsy is caused by a parisite infection. and can be spread by contact with other fish, especially if the others fish eat the infected fish, either before of after it dies, but I am not too sure what triggers it off in the first place.

Can someone please help me to clear up this little knowledge gap, because I have asked him to call me again at the weekend, as I promised to research it for him.

Thankyou

Tristan

[Dawn]

Sorry can't help you there Tristan but I was wondering what dropsy looked like in a fish? I have a female Platy that all of a sudden couldn't swim upright properly, she keeps on doing flips and swimming upside down, looks like she is swollen on one side. I put her into a small tank by herself and treated it but after lasting two days I found her dead this morning.

[KM]

Hi Carrie and Dawn

There are lots of sites on the web about dropsy, an easy one to wizz through is:

http://www.thatfishshop.com/health/dropsy.htm

I believe that dropsy is more a result of environmental causes than anything else.

You may want to get your customer to check his water conditions and make sure he is doing proper water changes.

[Dawn]

Thanks KM, it doesn't look like it was Dropsy that my Platy had thank goodness as I'm very particular about water conditions.

[Carriej]

Nice site. I have bookmarked it. I knew that it could be tranferred via cannibalism. I thought it was worms rather that bacteria... but now I know

I have already reccomended how to treat the tank to him, and that site backs up my recommendations, but I definately wanted to be sure.

Thankyou.

Tristan

[KM]

I'm glad the site helped a bit.

Unfortunately in my early days of fish keeping, before I new terribly much about water quality and filtration etc, I had a few cases of dropsy, and it can actually affect most types of fish. I have seen cichlids and goldfish with dropsy.

You will know when your fish has it. They swell up, and their scales stick out instead of sitting flush against their body.

It often happens when you have an overstocked tank....a common beginners problem (which I was guilty of)

Interestingly enough, in my experience, it doesn't seem to spread like other diseases do, which is generally a good thing.

[Caryl]

They look like a pinecone and the othre fish catch it when they eat the infected fish.

[Carriej]

Thankyou caryl, KM.

[Caryl]

Here's a bit more...

Symptoms

This disease is characterised by a swollen or hollow abdomen. Swollen areas may exhibit a 'pine-cone' appearance caused by the fishes scales sticking out. Fish may also appear off-colour and listless, and may stop feeding. The swelling caused by this disease may often be mistaken for a pregnant or egg-carrying fish. Gouramies and Cyprinids (barbs, danios, etc) are prone to this disease.

Causes

Dropsy is a condition with several possible causes. It may frequently be caused by internal infections by a number of different bacterial species. Viruses have also been associated with the disease. Poor water quality and/or diet may trigger the disease. If the problem has been caused by permanant damage to the kidney, then treating the infection will not eradicate the symptoms.

Possible cures

This disease must be caught early to maximise the chance of saving an affected fish, and even then the disease is difficult to cure. Previously, antibiotics prescribed by a vet were the only means of treatment for those countries where antibiotics cannot be purchased over-the-counter. There are now commercially available remedies which may help. These include Interpet #9 Anti Internal Bacteria and Waterlife's Octozin (can we get this in NZ does anyone know?). The addition of salt (1 tsp/gallon) may also be beneficial.

Dropsy is not usually considered to be particularly contagious, so it should not spread to other healthy fish - dead fish should be removed immediately however, to avoid cannibalism. However, bear in mind that there is more than one cause of dropsy, so in some cases the infective agent could be contagious. It is preferable to carry out treatment in a hospital tank where available.

[Pegasus]

Not seen a fish with Dropsy for a very long time... but back (who knows when.. '70s I think).. I used to show fish and would do the curcuits every week to the various shows.

I had a huge female Platy that I took along with several other species, (Oscars.. Angels.. etc..) and this old girl had served me well and given us hundreds of fry, plus attained a few high awards at the shows.

Anyway... she developed Dropsy, and at that time there were few guaranteed cures for anything, so I sought advice from my professor friend at the local university who was in the animal research division.

He was a highly respected fishkeeper and breeder and said it was caused by fluid building up in the fish. He suggested drawing the fluid off with a hypodermic syringe.

The thought of this turned my stomach.. but after a demo or two in the lab I decided to give it a go to save the old girl, who by this time was looking like a Puffer more than a Platy.

The routine was to insert the needle 3 to 5mm forward of the vent and allow it to penetrate around 4mm at an angle in line with the mouth.

I did this by holding the fish in a soaking wet towel.

Sure enough... out came the fluid and the fish suddenly became deflated.

On placing it in the tank it did a few quick sumersaults (as my heart almost stopped).. but then swam off as though nothing had happened.

Several weeks passed and the fish again became inflated.. so I repeated the treatment... and again every few weeks over the following year or so.. during which time she dropped fry on a regular basis.

I retired her from the shows and she lived to a ripe old age.

Not suggesting you try this... but

Bill.

[Jo1]

Hey it sounds like how you treat bloat in cows! I always wondered if that would be a viable treatment, as it looked similar to me.

[Carriej]

I have heard of the draining trick before.... not sure where.

I would be tempted to try it if a fish ever got sick.

Did you draw the flid out, or just pop it and let it drain?

[Pegasus]

CarrieJ asked:

Did you draw the flid out, or just pop it and let it drain?

Reason for the syringe is so that you can draw back on the plunger and drain the fluid. It's really a four handed job, so you need help in this.

Please note... I take no responsibility in any respect if you attempt this method.... (practice on a dead sprat or something)

BTW: Checked with the missus... it was around '62.. '63... not the seventies. MUST be getting old

Hey Jo1

Hey it sounds like how you treat bloat in cows! I always wondered if that would be a viable treatment, as it looked similar to me

Reminds me of that episode of "All Creatures Great And Small".. with James Herriot and the cow with bloat where they stuck a knife into the belly of the cow to release the gas.. but the old farmer decided at that moment to light up his pipe, and the explosion shook the whole cowshed :)

Bill.

[Carriej]

I could give it a go if the fish was going to die or somehing. I don't have much concience when it comes to fish, due to a few years slaughtering Hoki on the fishing boats. This can come in handy when its time to make hard decisions.

Not to say that I practise unneccasary cruelty or anything, my fish are very well looked after.

:evil: If only they knew what I used to do for a living, they woulden't be so keen to eat from my hand. :evil:

Tristan

[Aftaburn]

Recently had a case of Dropsy in a Melanotaenia praecox (Dwarf Neon Rainbow).

Treatment was not effective.

Its the only case I've seen in ages.

Treatment attempted (from Handbook of Fish Disease) was chloramaphenicol.

Then as a combo with formalin.

The fish survived 3 days in bath treatments.

I wasn't aware of the draining method or I'd probably have managed to save him.

I was unable to find it in Edward Noga's book on the subject.

Treatment method from Handbook of Fish Disease

Chloramaphenicol (effective against gram positive and gram negative bacteria including: cocci, and sprore bacilli;actinomycetes, flexibacteria, spirochetes, rickettsias, and large viruses.

40mg per liter for 10 to 20 hours

If the water runs turbid, transfer to fresh solution.

Dosage in feed: 500mg in 100g feed

Feed twice daily for 3 days.

I did not use the feed method due to application difficulty.

[Caper]

Help!!!!!

I've been reading about dropsy. Have been trying all week to get a good picture of the neons (not black ones)...I don't know...looking at "healthy" fish pics...trying to compare...but I can't tell...having a panic attack!

[Matt]

Hi Caper,

Your Neon is fine, it is just a female that is full of eggs. If it had dropsy its scales would be protruding like a pine cone.

Cheers,

Matt

[Caper]

OMG...NOOOOOOOO...

I had been browsing the web trying to see if there were any pics of a ...lol...pregnant neon...lol

:oops: I didn't know what it would look like!

But, Matt, the fish are so small would I be able to see the scales protruding...I've been even trying to see with a magnifying glass...I am loosing it aren't I

If this is what's goin on...how long before...darn, forget...do neons lay eggs?

[Caper]

I just found a web site...breeding tetras...and if that pic is what pregnant one looks like...OMG...I have 2 that way.

I thought they were hard to breed?????

[Aftaburn]

Yes neons are supposed to be hard to breed.

So far as I know you need a special setup to manage it.

Re: Dropsy...

how to tell:

Fish looks like pinecone. Often they also get popeye at the same time.

It is caused by a massive bacterial infection which bloats the fish hence the scales (or something like that).

It is easy to recognize even in small fish.

The best option if you get it is to dispose of infected fish or remove to hospital tank for treatment (can be treated by antibiotic but the most effective you'll have trouble getting (Chloramaphenicol I think).

For treatment instructions see my earlier post in this thread

There are several others but I have not had luck with them & I cant get Chloramaphenicol as its distribution is controlled.

[Caper]

Thanks for your help with this folks

I've been trying to see if scales are protruding but to the best I can see, they are not.

Questions

If it were dropsy:

-the "protruding" scales is it progressive?

-it would be the entire body wouldn't it?

-would it be plain to see by now?

-is the bloating the entire body, looked on net just looked like the bottom portion of fish...but then, new to this!

If fishies having babies:

-how long before eggs are layed?

From what I've read so far, it is difficult to breed neons because, as you said, they do have to have a special setup, which I do not have.

So, without the proper setup, could they still get...ummm...pregnant? What do you call it in fish...lol

[Matt]

Hi Caper,

It is definitely not dropsy .

They aren't pregnant as such, they are just full of unfertilised eggs, which basically means that you are feeding them correctly. For info on breeding them see here: http://www.fishpondinfo.com/neon.htm .

Cheers,

Matt

[Caper]

Thanks Matt

So, there is a difference between a...pregnant fish...lol...and one carrying unfertilized eggs???

What happens to the unfertilized eggs?

I AM SOOOOOO GLAD it is not dropsy

[livebearer_breeder]

condition your breeders with live and frozen foods

Get a small tank, 25c, and a bubbler on very low.

Cover the bottom in Java moss or artificail spawning plants, No Gravel

Use fresh rain water only in the small tank, No water conditioner

Add ur breeders to the tank for 24 hours

after 24 hours remove the breeders.

If you look carefully there should be small eggs all over the java moss and on the bottom of the tank, the ones that go white are infertile. Leave for another 24 hours or until you see very very small free swimming fry, then add Green water or luiqifry for the first week to two weeks after that they should be big enough for microworms and BBS.

If this is unsuccesful, condition your breeders and try again after a week.

Shae

[Matt]

Yes,

Livebearers i.e. Guppies and Platies get pregnant because the eggs are fertilised inside the female by the male fish. Egglayers i.e. Neon Tetras eggs are fertilised outside the female at spawning time. Basically she lays/releases the eggs and the male comes along and fertilises them.

Cheers,

Matt