The Future of the hobby in NZ?

[Rabbit]

5 years ago and the L numbers a few years ago they have still not added all the fish, they lost the list.

Have been speaking to MAF recently to follow up on the flow chart.

They did say it would be better as it will reduce cost, and they don't have time as they regard adding fish not important.

So current submissions are still going through the Erma app?

[jc254]

how do we decide what we can apply to add? popular by choice/vote?

[jc254]

or is it say the 10 people who want X fish will group together and get their info for their submission?

[Rob]

I think Reef's suggestion was very sensible - focus on adding new fish from genera that are already on the allowed list (since these are the ones with the highest likelyhood of success - especially if that flow chart thing gets implemented).

As for which species to focus on within that subgroup - some people have already put their hands up to champion particular groups (polypterus, loricids) and those ones (where someone is already willing/started to put in the leg work) should definitely go forward. As for others - I guess a nomination/voting system could work - still comes down to someone being prepared to put in the effort though.

IMO there should definitely (as Reef has mentioned) be a dialogue with the importers - there's no point trying to add a fish to the allowed list if the importers don't have access (or regular access) to it. Importers will also consider whether they feel there is a market for said fish (lots of fish already on the allowed list don't get imported - I have no idea if this is due to availability or solely economics).

[David R]

IMO there should definitely (as Reef has mentioned) be a dialogue with the importers - there's no point trying to add a fish to the allowed list if the importers don't have access (or regular access) to it. Importers will also consider whether they feel there is a market for said fish (lots of fish already on the allowed list don't get imported - I have no idea if this is due to availability or solely economics).

I agree, but only to a point. The availability of fish is always changing, and 99% of the time its for the better. If we were doing this a couple of years ago even I would have said there probably isn't much point in adding Polypterus ansorgii or Uaru fernandezyepezi based on their availability, both were sporadically available as wild caught fish from specialist suppliers, but now captive-bred juvis of both species are becoming commonly available. Yes it should be a consideration, but we shouldn't leave things off just because they aren't common at the moment.

Have been speaking to MAF recently to follow up on the flow chart.

They did say it would be better as it will reduce cost, and they don't have time as they regard adding fish not important.

It would certainly make things easier if that was the case. Am I right in thinking with the current system we need to provide just as much information regardless of whether it is a completely new genus or nearly identical to a species already on the list?

[Barrie]

I have what I regards as a good relationship with an importer and he has made a few points that are worth keeping in mind

This importer has now added the latin names back on his lists as David wants.

problem is that unless your a fish nut (us) or its a complience issue(the importer) there are not too many people that are fluent in Latin

Most LFS only want/use common names as they are easier to use. He mentions that if a name is hard to pronounce the LFS are reluctant to buy the fish for fear of being embarrassed.

He mentioned a store that reported a Barb Cherry as being dead on arrival so just think if it was long latin name.

Availability and saleability is whats behind any new imports. An example is a uaru ferdi would cost over $400 in the shops and they need to assess how many would sell NZ wide. They need to purchase minimum amounts which is usually a quater of a box which could be 400 to 800 fish.

He is in support of the great work that is going on but as mentioned by others, because its been added (hopefully) it may still not come into the country.

Personally, I want more killis on the lists and would buy fish myself but there is no way I can afford either money of the room for up to 800 fish

Also a big thats for people getting back on subject and being constructive

[smidey]

Availability and saleability is whats behind any new imports. An example is a uaru ferdi would cost over $400 in the shops and they need to assess how many would sell NZ wide. They need to purchase minimum amounts which is usually a quater of a box which could be 400 to 800 fish.

exactly, it is business (profit driven) feeding into the hobby (emotion driven). there are always going to need to be safe bets made on the profit side for that supply to continue. We may be lucky & see "big risks" taken from time to time like the zebra plecos but the market here is far too small to sustain many risks & the big risks will be few & far between.

[reef]

Am I right in thinking with the current system we need to provide just as much information regardless of whether it is a completely new genus or nearly identical to a species already on the list?

Adding a new genus is much harder as you need the basic information and then MAF have to do a risk assessment., This will also cost far more as they are going to charge,

If a genus is on the list then it will be easier as they have already supposedly done a risk assessment on that genus.

Uaru genus is on the allowable list so adding another species should hopefully be easy,

[David R]

Availability and saleability is whats behind any new imports. An example is a uaru ferdi would cost over $400 in the shops and they need to assess how many would sell NZ wide. They need to purchase minimum amounts which is usually a quater of a box which could be 400 to 800 fish.

As I mentioned before, it is something we need to consider, but we should also be looking to the future. A couple of years ago Uaru f's were available infrequently as expensive wild caught fish that were right up there with wild Altum angels in terms of difficulty to acclimatise and keep alive. Now F1 captive bred young are becoming available (still pricey) from more than one source, and they are proving to be much hardier than their parents. My guess is that in another year or two they will be much more readily available as more people start breeding the F1's. I certainly wouldn't want to not add something to the list just because an importer says he can't get it at the moment, look how long it took them to get black aros back in stock. Availability of fish is always changing, and mostly for the better.

Reef; thats good news, there are plenty of genera that could do with expanding!!

[SamH]

They need to purchase minimum amounts which is usually a quater of a box which could be 400 to 800 fish.

But does that 400 to 800 need to be all a single species?

[reef]

But does that 400 to 800 need to be all a single species?

all we want is a list of species hobbyist want asap.

We want to get a application in so we can use it as a test case to see how long it takes,

If some species are hard to get then they can still be added , however aim is to get most species that are readily available added.

[SamH]

all we want is a list of species hobbyist want asap.

Who is we sorry? How will this list be composed?

[reef]

Who is we sorry? How will this list be composed?

Myself and i will be coordinating with 3 main freshwater importers.

Then hopefully work can be progressed by a committee.

How will this list be composed

not sure what you mean?

[David R]

But does that 400 to 800 need to be all a single species?

No, there certainly wasn't 800 black aros bought in!! AFAIK, the importers can only quarantine one shipment at a time, so they need to find a supplier who has enough of a selection that they can make a viable order.

[SamH]

not sure what you mean?

Sorry I mean how will this list be created and put together. For example, will we all just post in here what we'd like and you guys take it down to a few species?

[Rabbit]

Peckoltia Compta and Hypancistrus Contradens

[phoenix44]

L134

The real ones this time.

Third times a charm :lol:

[phoenix44]

Peckoltia Compta and Hypancistrus Contradens

Ah. I see you got there before me!

[Mcculloch]

Expand on the Neolamprologus genus

Neolamprologus cylindricus

Neolamprologus multifasciatus

Neolamprologus buescheri

Neolamprologus caudopunctatus

Neolamprologus helianthus

Neolamprologus pulcher

Neolamprologus similis

[Barrie]

No

You wouldnt get 800 large fish into a bag

800 is small fish... the larger the fish the less in the bag (and the higher the cost each of course)

MAF demands only one type of fish to a bag

I know that with Killis, a bag would contain 50 to 100

Tetras would be maybe 400

The ferdis are 15 per box so would be single packed & naturally the freight content per fish is quite significant.

The fancy plecos are normally around 15 – 50 per box depending on type and nature

[alanmin4304]

It is a while since I have been involved but Maf used to have a limit on fish per bag and per box. Most of the fish here are imported from Asia which is a bit hot for most killies. They generally come from Europe. It is difficult to get an exporter who can supply a good range of fish in good condition.

[Mcculloch]

and the other "Altolamprologus"

Altolamprologus calvus.

[David R]

Here's a few of my suggestions for species that could be added to existing genera;

Uaru fernandezyepezi [did I really need to say it :lol: ]

Geophagus Sp. 'Tapajos Orange Head'

Geophagus Sp. 'Araguaia Orange Head'

Geophagus Sp. 'Pindare'

Polypterus bichir [would cover the ssp. P. b. lapradei and P. b. bichir]

Polypterus endlicheri [would cover the ssp. P. e. congicus and P. e. endlicheri]

Satanoperca daemon

There are other genera that I need to look into such as Crenicichla, Amphilophus, and Nandopsis. I can't for the life of me fish Jaguar cichlids/Parachromis (ex-Cichlasoma) managuense on there. I know they were there but they seem to have vanished of the version of the list I am looking at, that would be another genus worth expanding.

Another thing is that they still list the genus Cichlasoma on there. That genus is now redundant, except for a few species, but it used to cover a huge number of cichlids from central and south america. Using synonyms, you could add countless new species [and genera] that were once considered to be Cichlasoma....

[Rabbit]

Here's a few of my suggestions for species that could be added to existing genera;

Uaru fernandezyepezi [did I really need to say it :lol: ]

Geophagus Sp. 'Tapajos Orange Head'

Geophagus Sp. 'Araguaia Orange Head'

Geophagus Sp. 'Pindare'

Polypterus bichir [would cover the ssp. P. b. lapradei and P. b. bichir]

Polypterus endlicheri [would cover the ssp. P. e. congicus and P. e. endlicheri]

Satanoperca daemon

There are other genera that I need to look into such as Crenicichla, Amphilophus, and Nandopsis. I can't for the life of me fish Jaguar cichlids/Parachromis (ex-Cichlasoma) managuense on there. I know they were there but they seem to have vanished of the version of the list I am looking at, that would be another genus worth expanding.

Another thing is that they still list the genus Cichlasoma on there. That genus is now redundant, except for a few species, but it used to cover a huge number of cichlids from central and south america. Using synonyms, you could add countless new species [and genera] that were once considered to be Cichlasoma....

Dont forget Geophagus Balzani!

[David R]

You mean Gymnogeophagus balzanii? Already on there, actually thats another genus worth expanding on...