still behaving oddly

[Omaria]

The red black tail fish is still strange, (guppy or platy am not sure) did several water changes yesterday (about 3 buckets), held back feed. It seems to be ok at times and then suddenly just lays in a corner, other corner, can lay there for hours before moving to the next corner. Its my favorite and really hope it survives, any suggestions? All the others seem fine after we lost one yesterday.

[Caryl]

Has it done this from the beginning? It is possible it was damaged when being caught. This can happen. Also, did you say what sex the platys were? They need a sex ration of 1 male to 2 or more females. The one on the bottom may be a male being bullied by another male :-?

[Southerrrngirrl]

Are his/her fins clamped?

[Omaria]

After 2 more new buckets of water, it seems to be picking up and swimming a bit more...phew!!

[Omaria]

Are his/her fins clamped?

Not sure what you mean by fins clamped but the others have a sort of opened fan shape fin while this one is narrower and tighter it seems. When I did a water change it swam for a bit and now is hiding in its corner again (it keeps changing corners)

[Southerrrngirrl]

Clamped fins means the fins are not extended, instead they are held close to the body. It's a sure sign that all is not well with a fish.

From your description it soulds like his/her fins are clamped.

[Omaria]

Thanks I suspected as much, do you know whats likely to cause it and is there anything I can do about it? Some of the neons seem to be swimming backwards or just flapping on the spot, man this proves to be a worrying hobby LOL

[BikBok]

I am goign to suggest a worming treatment. Others may not agree but it seems you've done water changes and seen no improvement. Often fish from petstores will come with internal parasites and it does seem to be more common in livebearers such as guppy and platy. Clamping is one sign that all is not well.

Platys usually have dark coloured messy poop. Can you observe the poop of the sick one? If it's white and stringy or floats afterwards, that is a sign of worms.

The next tricky thing would be getting the right worming treatment because different formulations treat for different types of worms! not easy is it! (but worth it in the long run)

You're out west so you could pick up a small bottle of aviverm from the birdbarn.. this is a wormer that can be safely used on fish. I now worm ALL new livebearers in a small quarantine tank before adding them to my main tank .

The other wormer is prazi but I'm not sure where to buy that from as I was given mine by a fellow fishkeeper.

You could wait and see what other forum members suggest but worming is not goign to hurt them even if the problem is not worms.

Once you have a wormer, come back here for dosage rates.

I do feel for you! I had problems too when I first started up as well... and it was the result of being sold a dropped fish with callamanus worms. Not the way I needed to start the hobby but a quick learning curve with help from the wonderful members here.

[Southerrrngirrl]

My guess is the tank hasn't cycled. I see you are using stress zyme, which is bacteria in a bottle. My LFS also recommended that I use this but when I came here and asked pretty much the same questions as you I was told that it wasn't required.

I personally think you've added too many fish at once. Don't feel bad, I did the exact same thing but in a smaller tank when I started the hobby. Because the tank hasn't cycled, the ammonia (from fish waste and possibly rotting food) has built up and ammonia is toxic to fish.

I would recommend not getting any more fish to replace the ones that have died at this stage, and stop using the stress zyme. Cycling the tank as discussed in your other thread, is the process of building up the bacteria naturally. You need to be doing daily water changes, say 30-40% each time. And I would highly recommend getting an ammonia test kit at the least. You can get API ones the same as your pH test kit. 5 mls of tank water with 8 drops of 2 different solutions and wait 5 mins to see if the water changes colour.

Also, plenty of people say that Neons are hardy, but I've found this to be not the case. I had a school of neon tetras die within weeks of purchase, I've had a school of glowlight tetras for years. Silvertip tetras and Black Neon tetras in my experience are far more hardy. So maybe when the time comes to purchase more fish you might want to stay away from the neons.

[Omaria]

You're out west so you could pick up a small bottle of aviverm from the birdbarn.. this is a wormer that can be safely used on fish. I now worm ALL new livebearers in a small quarantine tank before adding them to my main tank .

The other wormer is prazi but I'm not sure where to buy that from as I was given mine by a quote]

I got the aviverm, it says for birds and ducks etc, but you said its safe for fish so I go by that (its mighty expensive tho) Now how do I treat my little pedro?

[ryanjury]

I would be inclined to hold off on the aviverm or any other meds, from reading your welcome thread it appears you didn't cycle your tank and it is likely your fish is sick as a result of that and not worms or anything else..

Keep up with the water changes and hope that the fish recovers by itself, there is a chance that the fishes gills were damaged in an ammonia spike (hence the gasping at the surface).

Also take it easy on the water changes unless you have the ability to match PH, GH and temp, I remember you have a 50L tank so it probably only holds around 40L changing 2-3 buckets at a time would probably be alot of stress on the fish. You do need to do them but maybe just stagger them throughout the day..

[Southerrrngirrl]

I agree with Ryan about holding off on the Aviverm. Investigate any possible water issues first. Once you have cycled the tank you can observe the fish again and if you still have problems then you can look at worming.

[BikBok]

Hi again Omaria

you're probably getting really confused by now.

If you could possibly take a sample of water to animates they can test the ammonia level for you. If there's any at all then the tank is still cycling. if there's no ammonia and no nitrites . then you could continue with the worming treatment.

Aviverm contains levamisole which is completly safe to worm fish with. You won't have wasted your money as sooner or later most fishekeepers encounter the nasty little worms. As I said earlier, I worm all new livebearers anyway. Did the bridbarn not sell you a little 5ml bottle? (I buy it to do my birds as well and they usually have small bottles enough to do 1-2 birds )

anyway dose rates: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=46809&p=508446&hilit=aviverm+dose#p508446

go down to Jennifers post which i will quote below:

Aviverm is a 24% solution of Levamisole hydrochloride. In practical terms the manufacturer says that it contains 200 - 300 grams per litre of levamisole (have a look here if you want to see for yourself: http://www.ermanz.govt.nz/hs/transfer/vetmeds-list.html)

When I work this out, I get 200-300mg per millilitre of Aviverm solution. At a dose of 2mg per litre of tank water (the most common accepted dose) this is 1ml per 100L of tank water (rounding up, in other words assuming the medication is a minimum of 200mg/ml, so the maximum dose would be 2.5mg/L).

That is about 0.1ml per 10 litres of tank water so for an 80 litre tank, you would add 0.8mls of Aviverm. The dose you were using would have probably been safe but it is more than 5 times the recommended dose. The problem with giving such a high dose is that if you ever developed a resistance, you might need to double or triple the dose to effectively minimise the worm burden and if the dose is already high, you would have a narrower margin of safety.

If I were you, I would treat with praziquantel and levamisole at the same time and if you don't see any improvement in two weeks, do a repeat dose. If still no improvement in two weeks from then, I would consider treating for protozoa (usually with metronidazole which requires a veterinary consult).

Prazi and levam will not harm your filter and metro will only kill some anaerobic populations. If you want to protect your biological anaerobic filtration from antimicrobials, take the fish out and treat in a hospital tank for three days during the treatment.

* so 1ml per 100L ... for your 50L tank use 0.5ml without any carbon in the tank.

* Leave 24hrs without turning the tank lights on

* then do a gravel vac of 25-40%

* do a couple more smaller water changes over the next 2 days and then you can put carbon in to remove the remaining medication if you want.

This can be repeated in 5-7 days , if you see dead worms when you vacuum up then def repeat the dose .

Good luck.. let us know how you get on.

[BikBok]

sorry Omaria if you think I've steered you wrong. Aviverm is a very useful product to have on hand for worms.

The reason i was thinking worms is because it was just your platy behaving strangely and not the other fish which i would expect if it was an ammonia problem.

I did also suggest you check the platys poop.

I know from experience that guppies and platy OFTEN come with parasites from petstores. Just something about the live bearers make them more susceptible.

I didn't think you would be sold a big expensive bottle of aviverm from the bird barn as usually they sell me a small bottle.

Anyway I will shut up now. Was just trying to help.

[Omaria]

Please dont be upset, I appreciate all the advice. I did ask at the birdbarn and they didnt know it was used for fish so I got a bottle for $21, not to worry can always sell it on trade me. Im now trying to figure out how much is 1 ml LOL. I did see some white wormlike bits floating in the tank when I did the water change, not sure if they are worms or faeces.

Just looked and the worm like bits are gone, probably settled on the bottom of the tank. The red and black fish does swim a bit more but nothing like the others and the lovely lady who came to help me today told me that he lost an eye. One of the others is pregnant she said but the babies will be better off as food for the adults for now :oops: Oh well, we live and learn.

[livingart]

i think 1ml equates closely to five drops from an eyedropper

[BikBok]

i think 1ml equates closely to five drops from an eyedropper

I just checked my eyedropper.. and 1ml was 20 drops.

Omaria, I'm not upset I just feel for you. I remember how frustrating it was when I started out and I had to deal with worm infested guppies straight off and at the same time as trying to cycle my tank. But i got there in the end and only lost the guppy that was the worst infested because my aviverm didn't arrive in time.. arrived by mail the day after he died . :-(

[Omaria]

If I decide to use the aviverm, (I got the eyedropper with the 1ml measurement) do I drop it straight in the tank or dilute it with water from the tank or separate the fish I think is affected? I am happy to go ahead with it, I really got nothing to lose, the amonia level is not bad (is that the same as ph level?)

[ryanjury]

It is hard to know what to do but without any symptoms to suggest worms then I wouldn't be worming them, what you are describing doesn't sound like worms so I am not sure if it will help your fish at all. I agree that most fish can be infected with them but don't know if it will help your fish.

Ammonia is completely different to PH, have you read up on cycling a tank and the various basic things that have to happen to have a stable and healthy tank?

[Ice222]

I know it can be confusing, but it's like asking for a doctor's advice online, even thought there may be many good doctors answering you questions, it can be difficult to get the right answer when none have seen your problem directly and crossed off all the possible causes of the symptoms. Especially when they don't have the full background of the patient. In fish terms that would be things like:

-How big is the tank?

-What kind of filter?

-How many fish?

-What kind of fish?

-How long has it been cycled/cycling?

-How much do you normally water change and how often?

-What do you feed them and how much?

-Did anything differently lately?

-Have you been you been using any meds or chems?

-What are your Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate levels?

-What is your tank temperature at?

And there's more!

You can see, considering the large number of things that could be affecting the fish, you can see why it can be hard to find the cause of a problem and give the right treatment. This time it's just a case of 'too many cooks in the kitchen' if you know what i mean :roll:. I by no means claim to be a veteran, I've only kept tanks since April this year, but I haven't had a single fish die yet so I think I'm doing okay :lol:. Did come close once or twice though with some silly mistakes!

Very nice to hear that someone has gone out to see your fish in person though, I hope they were helpful.

EDIT: I better not have jinxed my fish just now... Somehow my betta looks a bit 'off'. Paler, not swimming as much and not swimming up to me when I go up to the glass. Maybe he's just pale since it's night, the lights are off, and he's sleeping so not swimming up to me, but I'm gonna keep a close eye on him anyway D:.