Advice wanted on mystery acidic water in my tank

[DeeTee]

Hi,

I'm a new member and I've been keeping tropical fish for just a few months. I recently upgraded to a 100litre tank after my 35l got overloaded with enthusiastically breeding platies!

Since then, I've had nothing but trouble.

First, my water seemed perpetually cloudy (no fish added yet) - when I thought I'd exhausted everything else, I tried some Clarity water clarifier - the water became more cloudy and stayed that way. Eventually I broke the whole tank down, cleaned everything and started from scratch - finally clear water. Perhaps I didn't clean gravel well enough.

I added 4-5 platies after 24 hours of "good" water - some hours later noted they seemed to at the gulping air at the surface. Checked the water - very acidic (PH about 6.2) - did a 70% water change - (my water is normally alkaline close to PH 7.5) - got it back down to near 7 and 1/2 day later - fish back at surface - water back to PH 6.2.

Returned fish to old home, emptied tank, removed all ornaments that ?possibly might leach something - no joy. Fishless tank went from PH7.5 to 6.4 in a matter of hours. What on earth is happening? Is it some bacterial problem? What do I do now?

[Stella]

do you know about 'cycling' a tank?

Cloudy water is usually a bacterial bloom and is common in new tanks while things adjust.

What are these ornaments?

[jim r]

What exactly do you have in your fishless tank ? Where does your water supply come from ? What filtration are you using ?

[MarkLB]

Hi DeeTee, welcome to the forums :bounce:

My questions are the same as above

[livingart]

i will repeat the welcome

and the questions

[DeeTee]

Thanks for the welcomes.

The ornaments were resin based fake corals and plastic - bought from an aquarium dealer. Rinsed well in running water before putting in tank. Only other contents some now very well washed gravel (again from aquarium dealer) and silk/plastic plants (all rinsed).

Yes, I know about cycling. Tested my water - ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all zero a/c to my test kits (not surprising since my fish were only in there a couple of days). Everything was cleaned out after I put the fish in and found the problem with the acidity except the filter, which I was reluctant to clean yet again....... but now I I wonder if somehow I have cultured some strange bacteria????? Having said that, water is not cloudy and no odd smell at present. I'm stumped!

Filtration is a canister filter system - its a "Blue Planet" tank, with noodles, carbon/filter wool wrapped and plastic ball thingy's in it (all rinsed prior to initial used). Water is usual Auckland city supply.

[jim r]

Try putting some tap water in an empty container (check PH)and leave for a couple of days just to see if anything happens.(re -check PH) Sometimes you have to eliminate possibilities one by one.

[DeeTee]

I've effectively checked my tap water as I put some of the ornaments (briefly rinsed) from my acidic tank in buckets of warm tap water for several hours and checked the PH - no change - about 7.5 as per tap. So its not my tap water (or the ornaments). Over the same period my freshly replaced tank water (minus fish and those ornaments) went down from 7.5 to something like 6.4 in about 6 - 8 hours!

[jim r]

OK if you have eliminated the water what next? Have you got anything in your filter which might cause a crash?

[Jennifer]

It could be something else but failing an absence of plants, animals or ornaments causing the problem a 1 point change in pH is not completely unexpected from water out of the tap. If the water has travelled a long way in city pipes or was held under heat and pressure in a hot water cylinder the amount of disolved CO2 will be different (perhaps lower) than water in a fish tank with surface agitation and water circulation. Atmospheric gas exchange = increased dissolution of CO2 = increased acidity of the water. I notice changes like this using my pH metre when I do water changes but since I only change 40% at a time the fish don't seem to mind and the natural buffering capacity of water means that it is stable in just a few hours (depending on the size of the tank). Of course this is an oversimplified explanation....just an idea anyway. :roll:

BTW, welcome! :bounce:

[oneeyedfrog]

Hi, I had a similar problem but with the ph going up. I finally tracked it down to the bio noodles in the canister filter. I filled two bowls with water from the tap put noodles in one , left overnight and tested both in the morning. So I would test all the media in the filter

Hope you find the answer soon.

[SamH]

Consider yourself lucky! Discus, tetras and rasboras love acidic water! Get your hands on some of those and you'll be set. Just make sure you setup the tank first, wait for the pH to drop and stabalize and then add the fish (maybe not the discus though).

Good luck.

[Scottie841]

Are the noodles in the filter a reputiable brand or cheep TM stuff?

Have you tried removing the filter and just leaving the water sitting in the tank?

I would say that if you have removed everything but the filter you have one of 2 things. The filter or the tank.

Filter = something in the filter that is not right (my guess is the noodles)

Tank = someone has cleaned it with something they should have and have left a film of cleaning product on it.

[whetu]

Consider yourself lucky! Discus, tetras and rasboras love acidic water! Get your hands on some of those and you'll be set. Just make sure you setup the tank first, wait for the pH to drop and stabalize and then add the fish (maybe not the discus though).

Good luck.

I agree. 6.2 pH actually isn't bad in itself, it's just the sudden change in pH that can shock the fish and put them under stress. I really must test the pH in my water again but it usually sits down around 6.2 and all my fish seem perfectly healthy and fine in there. (See my signature for the kind of fish I have.) I am also in Auckland and the water comes out of the tap at a much higher pH but as soon as it goes in my tank it ends up back in the low 6s.

I would suggest the following when introducing fish to your tank:

1) Make sure you acclimatise them to the new pH as slowly as possible

2) Add as much extra surface agitation as possible to make sure dissolved oxygen levels are high (so the fish won't need to gasp at the surface)

3) Be very patient with the whole process and do any changes very slowly, while trying not to stress! It will all work out well in the end.

Oh, and welcome to the forums. It actually sounds like you are off to an excellent start in your fish-keeping career! The fact that you have investigated the issues, you have test kits, are observing the behaviour of your fish, you know about cycling and you are on here discussing it - those are all signs that you will make a great fish-keeper one day!

[DeeTee]

Thanks for all the really helpful advice. I really don't know anyone else with my interest in tropical fish - my husband thinks the end product is lovely but really not worth the trouble.......... most of my friends think I'm crazy - too much stress for ???? Its good to have some support!!

I have now removed my filter and soaked the medium in 3 separate buckets (noodles, plastic balls, and carbon/wool). Tested an hour later - tap water unchanged - but by this morning ... all 3 tested acidic!

So okay, how do I best clean them? Untreated running tap water enough or do I need to do more?

Also, I suppose I need to clean my gravel again too since its probably got the same bacteria?

(Oh, and thanks for the advice on the PH levels........ its really the drastic changes that had me worried too - and the fact that the fish kept all kept breathing at the surface after a few hours in that tank made me think it wasn't a benign bacteria? After all, their old tank had a similar acidic PH at the time of transfer to what the new tank became (that was due to overloading and I needed to do a water change to bring it back) so they shouldn't have been gasping at the surface like that - should they?

[Jennifer]

You can boil the media and stones for a few minutes to get rid of any bacteria, be careful of melting the plastic balls though (you could always take this opportunity to replace them with some good media like Eheim pro). You might want to dispose of/replace the carbon as well since it may have absorbed something toxic - if you wanted to be extra safe.

I do wonder if the breathing at the surface is related or if there are multiple problems here....After the overhaul you filled the tank with 100% new tap water and you put the fish in 24 hours later right? Did you treat your water after you did the complete overhaul of the tank? If so, what with? Do you have good surface agitation by way of your filter outlet or an air pump?

Hope the boiling works, keep us updated.

[klaymann]

can you tell us what gravel you have placed the tank pls ?, they can have a major effect on PH buffer levels with the mass they hold ..

[DeeTee]

At the moment I am waiting for some new media from Masterpet (tank supplier) via the store that sold me the tank. Decided that something was decidedly odd and this store is populated with young people who are enthusiastic but woefully lacking in knowledge . My tank had been on display (not with water in, I don't THINK but....) and they cleaned it out of stuff and who knows, maybe used a cloth with cleaner or something on to wipe it. Anyway, they've agreed to replace the filter system. So I'm stuck with waiting another few days....................... might occupy myself by boiling my gravel just to be safe, and giving the rest of the tank a good rinsing.

Does anyone know anything about the Blue Planet media? Should I be trying another kind of media? I know nothing about noodles / carbon etc ............. are they all the same or different qualities ?

When I put the fish back in the tank after I cleaned it - I had treated the water with StressCoat on refilling. I could certainly see the water movement from my pump - not an expert but it looked like there was significant movement to me.

Re the gravel - it consists of what looks like small multicoloured river stones - I think they called it autumn or harvest gold mix or something (for what that's worth).

Once again, thanks for your ongoing advice, you are saving my sanity!

[klaymann]

Good your in Auckland so your best to contact "stone and water world" in Mt Wellington , they sell all the gravels in bulk sacks at about 1/3 the price the shops do.. they should also be able to give advice on the Ph changes certain gravels do ..

[DeeTee]

Know them well .......... in process of installing new outdoor pond for my goldfish through them - they also bred like crazy last year.......... the gravel they sell is the same stuff as what i'm using only I bought that from the Hollywood Fish Farm whose prices are a lot better than some places!!!

Any thoughts about filter medium (what's good, what's not?)

[SamH]

Any thoughts about filter medium (what's good, what's not?)

Most filters I've seen and heard about do it like this (in order of water hitting the media to water leaving the filter):

1. Coarse sponge

2. Finer sponge and/or filter wool

3. Biological media (ceramic rings, gravel, porous rock, etc)

4. Additives (carbon, peat, coral, etc)

Sponges don't differ much in quality but the pet store stuff is guarunteed to be safe. Filter wool is the same but the stuff from Spotlight is good as long as there are no additives, fire retardants, mould inhibitors, etc. For bio media I've only used the aquaone ceramic noodles and they've been great. Additives you only need for temporary treatment or when special fish are kept.

HTH

[Jennifer]

I am no expert on this (so anyone feel free correct me on anything ) but the basic idea is that you want to have at least mechanical and biological media in your filter. You can also have chemical media. The mechanical media is to remove your organic waste particles which is good not only for the clear water but also to allow the biological media to not become clogged with rotting organic matter so that it can work more efficiently. Mechanical filtration can be things like sponges or small ceramic noodles (e.g. Eheim Mech). The mechanical filtration can get clogged easily if you have lots of debris in the tank (e.g. rotting leaves, fish waste). The biological media is where the nitrifying bacteria colonise so generally these are media with a high surface area (e.g large porous ceramic noodles or bio balls). I use Eheim Pro balls which are expensive but I think they are worth it in terms of how well they work. People have lots of oppinions on this but genrally the higher the surface area, the better. The chemical filtration is where you can alter the chemistry of the water by adding buffers, carbon or things that remove certain chemicals like ammonia. Many people don't need to use chemical filtration but it is handy if you are trying to remove medications, toxins or to change the pH.

The general order that is used in many types of filters is for the water to pass first through a mechanical filter, then through the biological filter. You can then also use filter wool of varying types to 'polish' the water. If you are using a chemical filter you can add that after the mechanical filter (but anywhere would be fine really).

I hope that helps a little.

It sounds like you are well on the right track with the substrate and the replacement media. Let us know how it turns out!

[DeeTee]

Thanks for that - will keep you posted on developments. I've decided to look at buying alternative media to try in my tank while I wait for the replacements - at the speed the store works it will take most of next week and my poor overloaded tank is in imminent danger of crashing so fingers crossed!!! I should not have bought those 2 bristlenoses in anticipation of the tank being fine - too impatient.......... :oops:

[SamH]

Keep up the water changes, that should keep the water chemistry within the safe zone.

[ryanjury]

This is all looking alot more difficult than it has to be..

Have you had the KH and GH of your water tested?

Tanks tend to go acidic over time due to the break down of waste and fish pee/poo and any uneaten food etc. If this happens fast it is usually because your water has a low KH or lacks buffering.. I would say this is your problem the solution is to add some small pieces of coral/crushed oyster shells/coral sand or baking soda with each water change.

I would say your media and ornaments are fine, the media will be making the water go acidic because it has waste in it and it was rotting, your water didn't change when you let it sat because it hadn't been exposed to anything to make it change. I suspect is has a very low KH so will be very prone to having PH changes.

Are all your test kits brand new most of them are only accurate for a year check the box for expiry/manufacturing dates.

from http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/w ... mistry.php

"KH (Carbonate Hardness)

Carbonate hardness, also known as “buffering capacity” or “total alkalinity,” is a measurement of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water. It is best described as water’s ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added – almost acting like a sponge for those additives so they cannot affect the pH. Without adequate buffering, the pH in your aquarium will eventually drop because the end result of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate (nitric acid), which slowly builds up between water changes. With sufficient buffering the pH remains stable. For a Rift Lake aquarium, KH is ideally in the range of 180 – 240 ppm, or 10° – 14° DH. "