Aquatopia Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 It is an example of why it is not easy to get fish in NZ. It shows that there are big markets out there and they are not here. But retailers can help to create markets. I know that import costs and MAF fees etc are very expensive for importers here, but it strikes me that the biggest mark up is between the importer and the retailer (and when the retailer is ALSO the importer, there is even less of an excuse for this). If certain fish were available at lower cost there would be higher demand because more people could afford the fish they desire. If the price is right there will be greater demand on the retailer by the consumer; in turn the retailer will be asking the importer to bring in higher numbers and the cost of import will benefit from economies of scale and be cheaper - importers should then be more willing to import and the availability and diversity of fish should improve, along with lower prices ..... (in an ideal world, lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsmith Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 But retailers can help to create markets. I know that import costs and MAF fees etc are very expensive for importers here, but it strikes me that the biggest mark up is between the importer and the retailer (and when the retailer is ALSO the importer, there is even less of an excuse for this). If certain fish were available at lower cost there would be higher demand because more people could afford the fish they desire. If the price is right there will be greater demand on the retailer by the consumer; in turn the retailer will be asking the importer to bring in higher numbers and the cost of import will benefit from economies of scale and be cheaper - importers should then be more willing to import and the availability and diversity of fish should improve, along with lower prices ..... (in an ideal world, lol) This is true to some extent, but there's also only so many of us here who are interested in fish. We're never going to have the massive market, because all in all, probably only 100,000 people have more than 3 - 4 fish in NZ. In other markets, there are potentially millions of people who keep lots of fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 This is true to some extent, but there's also only so many of us here who are interested in fish. We're never going to have the massive market, because all in all, probably only 100,000 people have more than 3 - 4 fish in NZ. In other markets, there are potentially millions of people who keep lots of fish. And yet I was in my local LFS yesterday picking up my new tank and saw the sheets and sheets and sheets of glass he has there and i said "that will last you a while then", to which he replied "i re-order that amount every couple of weeks" - so people are buying tanks for sure . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 ýou are assuming a perfect world, a strong NZD, and no competition from other countries. the market here is also thin, and illiquid, and so the normal supply-demand conditions will not work. retailers do not and have never created markets. they merely exploit existing markets, unexplored niches, and think of ways to differentiate products that already exist in markets, by cost leadership, product differentiation etc etc strategies. Alan is right when he said It is an example of why it is not easy to get fish in NZ. It shows that there are big markets out there and they are not here. if importers bought a whole lot of fish and competed with the larger markets out there, it would lead to higher prices in NZ, and when the prices increase immediately with the new imports, fewer people would buy fewerfish... poor wholesalers now have illiquid inventory, that loses value everyday; plus the variable and fixed costs = importers, wholesalers (more often that not are the importers), retailers and then the poor consumers get done over. the rules that you have used, while are fundamentally correct; simply do not apply to this trade, and if they did, we would have capitalised on this a long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 ýou are assuming a perfect world, a strong NZD, and no competition from other countries. the market here is also thin, and illiquid, and so the normal supply-demand conditions will not work. retailers do not and have never created markets. they merely exploit existing markets, unexplored niches, and think of ways to differentiate products that already exist in markets, by cost leadership, product differentiation etc etc strategies. Alan is right when he said if importers bought a whole lot of fish and competed with the larger markets out there, it would lead to higher prices in NZ, and when the prices increase immediately with the new imports, fewer people would buy fewerfish... poor wholesalers now have illiquid inventory, that loses value everyday; plus the variable and fixed costs = importers, wholesalers (more often that not are the importers), retailers and then the poor consumers get done over. the rules that you have used, while are fundamentally correct; simply do not apply to this trade, and if they did, we would have capitalised on this a long time ago. that sounds like a text book reply rather than one that is necessarily correct to be honest, but after last night my brain does not want to function today so im not gonna argue, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 importing and more market, probably an age old topic that has been thrashed since fish have been kept in nz more population, more of a % keep fish, more buying power for importers we are but a mote in gods eye in the grand scheme of things fish related in the world some importers in nz are specialising in certain species and maybe creating their own market i believe you can create a market but it is not infinite here and once it is saturated you need to move on to other colour morphs or species, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke* Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 once it is saturated you need to move on to other colour morphs or species, mmm true. altho it seems a lot of people are keeping your bread and butter fish aye.... like guppies, minnows, barbs, danios. then thinking about this it does appear price related... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 IMO we will never be satisfied with the fish we can get, the same way Aussies arent satisfied Americans etc. as long as there are fish we cant get we will want them. Its great to see another breeder getting himself set up properly in NZ Well done DAuckland and others who are clearly putting the effort into getting good quality fish onto our market. The production of good quality fish in NZ is I'm afraid solely in our hands as the end user. We have to accept that we will have to pay more for fish, we live in an isolated country with a temperate climate and strict import restrictions, all the crying about how much markup is put on a fish is pointless. Everyone is entitled to make a living and I dont know any fish retailers who are loaded so quit crying about it. I take my hat off to those of you who are producing decent fish within their speciality, Mr Pleco and Ryan and Johannes spring to mind,they have invested mega bucks into their stock and thousands of hours into breeding some edit:suphew hard/rare fish. The best way to get better fish and more variety is to help them carry on the good work. Support them, pay a decent amount for the special fish they produce, so they can improve their range and stocks. I have started down the breeding path and it will take me many years and more money than I care to think about to get you folks some of the fish I'm targeting, What will happen is I will offer a first generation on this forum for 1/2 the price you can get in the shop, they wont sell, I will get ripped off and end up having to sell them at 1/5 of the retail price to a middle man who has to mark them up 3-400%to pay his costs and people will grizzle about the cost of fish in the shop. Buy locally bred fish and at least we stand a chance. Rant ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 IMO ... The production of good quality fish in NZ is I'm afraid solely in our hands as the end user. We have to accept that we will have to pay more for fish, we live in an isolated country with a temperate climate and strict import restrictions, all the crying about how much markup is put on a fish is pointless. Everyone is entitled to make a living and I dont know any fish retailers who are loaded so quit crying about it. "IMO" its a bit damned rude to tell people to "quit crying about it" :evil: I'm sure there are more polite ways of disagreeing with someone. You have stated that what you wrote is YOUR opinion, so how about having the manners to allow others to have their opinions without being rude about it. Oh, and I know of one LFS owner who is a multi-millionaire and another who owns a house on the Grand Circle overlooking Christchurch, so lets not assume they are all poor either ! :roll: The one thing I do agree with you on is that some of the breeders on here who are putting a lot of effort into producing good quality fish are doing a very valuable job for us all. (And thank heavens the fish available on here or on TM from members on here are priced so fairly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 but it strikes me that the biggest mark up is between the importer and the retailer (and when the retailer is ALSO the importer, there is even less of an excuse for this). The importer carries a far bigger risk than the retailer or pretty much anyone in the industry. That mark up has to cover all the fish that don't make it through the stressful shipping and quarantine process, the associated MAF fees, and the time they are sitting around waiting for shops to order them. The one thing I do agree with you on is that some of the breeders on here who are putting a lot of effort into producing good quality fish are doing a very valuable job for us all. (And thank heavens the fish available on here or on TM from members on here are priced so fairly). The other side to that coin is that it puts less money into the importers pockets and decreases the motivation for them to import anything new and interesting. Just look at the Altolamprologous that have just been imported, there's a whole lot of people on here (and I'm sure there's many more who aren't) who say they are dieing to get their hands on them, yet when they finally become available it seems like everyone is too tight to fork out the cash for them and they're left sitting in the shop. What does that tell the shop/importer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 The other side to that coin is that it puts less money into the importers pockets and decreases the motivation for them to import anything new and interesting. Just look at the Altolamprologous that have just been imported, there's a whole lot of people on here (and I'm sure there's many more who aren't) who say they are dieing to get their hands on them, yet when they finally become available it seems like everyone is too tight to fork out the cash for them and they're left sitting in the shop. What does that tell the shop/importer? Too tight ? LMAO - not many people have $165 PER FISH to spare - that ain't tight, thats called being realistic !! Are you aware of the current economic slump ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Too tight ? LMAO - not many people have $165 PER FISH to spare - that ain't tight, thats called being realistic !! Are you aware of the current economic slump ? Thats the reason why it will never be worth importing quality stock into NZ, 98% of the fish-keeping population balks at paying more than $20 for a fish. There's plenty of people willing to pay ten times that amount for a yappy mutt, or even more for a rare parrot. Do you want them or don't you? Have you got an alternative to get them cheaper somewhere else? Some people spend more than that one one boozy night in town, or on a pair of shoes or designer jeans, and you're not willing to pay that much for a sought-after rare species of fish that has been almost unobtainable for 3+ years. Its no wonder Animates are only interested in stocking basic lines of fish. apologies if you are suffering real financial hardship because of the recession, lost job etc. I wasn't calling you specifically tight, more the NZ aquarium hobby in general. Zebra plecos are another great example, rare and expensive, but not impossible to get and not impossible to breed either. I know there's at least one US supplier who ships internationally who has them available for $180-250US each. Yes initially it sounds like a bit, but if you forked out the money and had the only breeding stock in the country it wouldn't be impossible to make it back. But nobody likes to think big (or invest big) and push the hobby along. I have a lot of respect for Johannes and the effort he's put into getting different Tropheus and making them available to us. When space/time/money permits I'd like to try to do the same with some of the central/south american cichlids that can legally be imported but don't seem to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Well I think you are taking your example to extremes to be honest - and its definitely not fair to say no one wants to pay more than $20 for a fish - there is a male venustus on TM at the moment and the bidding is at $30. Money, time and space permitting I would like to do my bit for the hobby too - but thats the thing isnt it - money time and space permitting. I guess its something that wont be resolved on here, thats for sure. Anyway, we have probably hijacked this thread too far from its original purpose now so lets leave it there :-) One things for sure, I would love to have the opportunity to see this discus farm sometime - cos THATS A LOT OF FISH ! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Well I think you are taking your example to extremes to be honest - and its definitely not fair to say no one wants to pay more than $20 for a fish - there is a male venustus on TM at the moment and the bidding is at $30. Wow, $30. Maybe I should have said $50 or $100. Regardless, if nobody wants to part with their cash then we're not going to see anything new or interesting. Just look at Japan, why do they have such a wide range of fish available to them (despite having little space to keep them in)? Because there are people willing to fund collecting trips to go collecting rare fish from remote and dangerous locations (even in Eastern Africa to collect rare and large Polpyterus while being guarded by AK47-wielding locals), and there are other people willing to pay big prices for such fish. You talk about the retailer building the market, but IMO he's only half responsible. If the hobbyist won't take the opportunity to pounce on the rare fish even if they are a little pricey then there's no point in them bothering. Do you think we would be seeing bichirs selling for $60-90 in most LFS now if the first time they came in about 4 years ago people turned their noses up at the $170 price tag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-town... Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I agree with David R. If you want a species so badly and have been waiting forever for it to become available most commited people to the hobby will fork out to try breed and make them more commonly available. Isnt that what hobbies are for? blowing all your money on them because you like it :lol: ? you want something someone else doesnt have or a sense of achievment for breeding something that is quite difficult? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 No A-town - thats not what hobbies are for in the case of most people - well i certainly don't covet things just because someone else has it, but you might I guess. Im not you ! And again, it seems there are some people who really are not aware of the current economy - a hobby as something to "throw all your money at" ? For some maybe, if they have money to throw, but I would say most of us cannot afford to be so frivolous. To me, the hobby is something I enjoy just because I love fish. Not because I want to have what everyone else has or as something people can see me lavishing money at. I just want to enjoy the fish. At a fair price. Incidentally, the ability to fork out massive prices for certain fish has absolutely nothing to do with committment and a lot more to be with economic reality. To imply that someone is not committed because they dont spend hundreds of dollars on one or two fish is either somewhat arrogant or totally naiive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc360 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Really great thread. Its one of those hurdles we have too jump over when we begin to think about taking our hobby seriously. The hobby would be nothing without the investment of committed breeders in this country to have gone to great expense for their passion. What is required is a strong trust relationship between the retailers/importers and the hobbyist. (made all the harder by the selling tactics of some lfs) So we can all move along together. It is also true about what Simian said, he will spend mega -offer them cheaply to hobbyist-and struggle to sell them. Thats one thing that seems to keep reoccurring. Hopefully an importer who is browsing this conversation will notice that there is genuine interest in improving the Zebra Pleco's plight in New Zealand. Question- i know that it is against site guidelines for forum members to try to form some sort of group to collectively get together and put their money where there mouth is. Does this rule apply to commercial users who can get a group of these fish here to petition a group hobbyist to perhaps cough up some sort of deposit to ensure genuine interest? possibly a prospect more flawed than realistic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Question- i know that it is against site guidelines for forum members to try to form some sort of group to collectively get together and put their money where there mouth is. Does this rule apply to commercial users who can get a group of these fish here to petition a group hobbyist to perhaps cough up some sort of deposit to ensure genuine interest? possibly a prospect more flawed than realistic? JC360 - what an awesome idea - now the idea of a group of people bringing in the rarer fish is very appealing. It means those of us who are not loaded with cash to throw around can enjoy our hobby without being accused of not being committed ! I honestly believe that if some of the more special fish are within the reach of the average hobbyist then it will improve the chances of the hobby. Because I am sure there are plenty out there who would love to take their hobby one stage further. Perhaps there could be a forum (or sub forum) for "Breeder Groups". The purpose does not have to be stated as forming a buying consortium, rather to create an "Interest group" whose main intentions are to further the interest of a particular species. Can't see any harm in that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaNs Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Good luck with that, iv tried Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc360 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Good luck with that, iv tried yeah im not holding my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuffaDragonNZ Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 been a good read i aggree with david R and A-Town... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 the thing to be VERY careful of is not to upset the retailers by taking away their market It is their living and if we make it not worth their while, they will simply move to other markets so that they can still put food on the table Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 been a good read i aggree with david R and A-Town... As do I. I have probably gone way off track on this one, and it would appear I have upset at least one member here but before you get all defensive think on the following. Many people seem to think that they are limited by their financial position, this is not the case, they are limited by their vision. I don't have wads of cash to splash around, like most of us here I have a very limited budget (less than $40 per week disposable income. That is for all my discretional spending not just fish), but I have started on a path which will see me in another 1-2 years producing some jolly hard to get fish. I started breeding less than 12 months ago, with 1 pair of Platies. and a pair of common bristle nose. From this start I now have funded the following: 4 trios of Bn 1 Pair GBA 1 pair red whips 2 pairs of Kribs a community of sunset platies (no longer bothering with) I have lost a number of expensive breeding stock in the process. I have given away hundreds of dollars in fish and other associated kit to club members to get people on their feet. I am currently building a very small fish room in my garage, which will take approximately 4 months to pay off but will save me that amount in electricity this winter alone. All things being equal and when I can get my first batch of whips raised to saleable size I will be able to purchase some more higher grade fish and continue my steps up the chain of producing even better fish. This is not supposition it will happen! This is the same path many of the quality breeders in NZ have followed,it works and will continue to work. So don't be defeatist, accept we will never have the same options as a bigger community, wailing wont change a thing only doing will make any difference at all. I reiterate We the end user hold the solution to our problems of variety and cost, if all of us in this community bred only one "rare" fish there would be plenty of choice and the costs would be more reasonable for the entry level aquarist I discuss the sell price of my fish with the retailer when I sell, to ensure they will sell at a price that is fair. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 I agree Simian from a personal point of view, the last 6 months have been the busiest 6 months for me (bussiness wise) ever and Im in the building related industry... as a glass merchant/glazier My wife has had her best ever summer and her job is mainly spring/summer (dove release) the down turn appares to effect larger companies that are less effective in controlling their costs and have large waste in their costings Figures I looked at yesterday mentioned that in the last 3 months last year, unemployment rose by less that 1% If you turned of the radio, I wonder if anyone would really notice a turn down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 And again, it seems there are some people who really are not aware of the current economy What do you do for a living? I take it you're self-employed or work in a industry suffering severe downturn from the recession (ie commercial construction) where large numbers of people are being laid off. Half the problem with the recession is that average joe wage earners who aren't in any immediate financial trouble get spooked by the media and stop spending money, which only makes things worse. Economics lesson aside, if it weren't for the recession would you still be arguing the same point? a hobby as something to "throw all your money at" ? For some maybe, if they have money to throw, but I would say most of us cannot afford to be so frivolous. To me, the hobby is something I enjoy just because I love fish. Not because I want to have what everyone else has or as something people can see me lavishing money at. I just want to enjoy the fish. At a fair price. Frivolous? I never suggested buying rare fish at the expense of your weekly food budget, obviously if you can't afford it then you can't have it, thats just a simple fact of the hobby. But don't hate the shops/importers for charging a high price for rare fish just because you're not willing to pay it. And what is a fair price? Do you know what those $165 fish cost the retailer/wholesaler? You're making a big assumption by presuming that because they're expensive they have a big mark up on them. I know for a fact that more expensive fish don't have the same mark up (as a percent) as cheaper fish. Incidentally, the ability to fork out massive prices for certain fish has absolutely nothing to do with committment and a lot more to be with economic reality. To imply that someone is not committed because they dont spend hundreds of dollars on one or two fish is either somewhat arrogant or totally naiive. That is only true to a point. There may be a few rich people who just want to show off to their friends but spending loads on fish doesn't automatically put you in that category. I'd say the bulk of people spending big dollars on fish are very committed, and I can't help but think you're being a bit of a typical kiwi tall-poppy-chopper. I might spend a lot on fish, but I work damn hard for my money and have made choices and sacrifices so that I can do so. I guess for you it must just be a hobby, but for some of us its a passion.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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