herefishiefishie Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 It has come to my attention that someone has bought some fish he thinks are a hybrid. This topic has been discussed on the cichlidforum in the states. Where a moderator has confirmed what I thought. So I will just link them both as firstly, funny how I get a mention. 2ndly buyer beware. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1305498#1305498 http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=208317961 Ryan, why don't ya just post a couple of pics here. What i used to do was post a pic of what one is meant to be, ie; From a rep source like Ad Konnings. Then post 2 up of what you got, facing same way. Then post another of a what is meant to be a real one. Picture says a thousand words, seeing as some doesn't rate my ability, I then don't have to say a thing. :lol: Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 the pictures paint a thousand words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 lol Frenchy I didn't want to drag that here as I didn't want a fight to break out here.. I also know that there aren't many in NZ who have the knowledge or ability to correctly ID a fish that isn't very common here, any opinions may or may not be swayed by the fact I am a regular poster here. I also know that many who know what they are doing with africans in NZ will know who bred these and this will sway peoples opinions as they will base it on what they know of this person not the fish.. As you can see by the trademe link the evidence and photo's did absolutely nothing to warn people about what they were buying so buyer beware doesn't work. Anyway a few pics. Male Male from http://www.african-cichlid.com/Calliptera.htm (same colour strain as "example" photo on auction which was not the blue strain.) Male (taken by Ad Konnings from http://www.africanfish.info/index.php?id=245&L=0) A few more pics here http://www.ciklidbladet.se/artregister/ ... asp?ID=300 Plenty of links to pics here http://www.african-cichlid.com/Calliptera.htm To me the are completely off in colour and shape, also the fish are supposed to have egg spots to belong to the Astatotilapia genus, "In keeping with the Astatotilapia designation, the anal fin is adorned with true occuli in a single row." (from http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/a ... iptera.php again another respectable site). They are supposed to mature or at least colour up at 1.5-2" http://www.kcff.net/fish/oldworld/astat ... rticle.htm but the ones on the auction were unsexable at 4-8cm. As you can see I have done alot of research on these guys I was hoping mainly to stumble across some rare variant so that what I was finding didn't mean I had hybrids I should also mention that the guy I got the fish off is being great about it, he hasn't made me pay for the fish or anything and has been working with me to try and resolve the issue I have no gripes with him at all. He suggested trying to contact the original breeder (I happened to find his auction and I had no other way to do it) so I tried to give him my email to talk about it on there, and the rest is history A picture tells a thousand words that's for sure, so does the opinion of a moderator on a world wide respected specialist cichlid forum, I know these fish are hybrids and now so does the original seller whether he wants to admit and deal with it or not. I just feel sorry for the people out there who have shelled out good money to own them, yes everyone makes mistakes but it is how we deal with these mistakes that separates us out.. I know if I had been approached with a similar situation the first thing I would do is say sorry and try and work out what went wrong rather than rubbish everyone and their opinions I should add that I have at least 5 species of fish through the same channels are they are awesome some of the best fish I have had.. There is just something gone wrong with these Asti's. The worst thing IMO is we don't have a nice new strain of fish to be enjoyed and it is very likely we will never see these fish as they are not on the list. Anyway enough said these fish will be going to livingart wildlife park (still trying to find them a ride) to cruise around in the big malawi display tank and not be bred from, or destroyed so no more are spread around from me, unfortunately I cannot control any other purchasers choices in the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted March 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Give yourself a bit more credit Ryan. You have done very well to question the person selling in a way that has got you the not so correct answers. Would of been great if pics of the parents or those others raised to adult hood were shown. Instead of attacks on a person who hasn't posted anywhere really for months to a year. {well done} Well done on the research & asking on a well established foreign forum too. I wouldn't worry to much about upsetting the apple cart. I have done that here & there a few times myself. I just try to call a spade a spade. Its a dodgy enough hobby whether it is by accident or not. The points were well covered by the Mod on cichlidforum. All I will say is that a well respected member of your forum has visited me & seen some of the cronies I hang with. We don't make stupid stabs in the dark. Good luck with it all. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 yes well done on the way you handled yourself ryan in the face of some abrupt responses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Yes I Thought the the Mod from the American forum was correct in his summation. It is one of the things I notice in our hobby here. This need for some to have an exclusivity in some fish and this stupid sense of superiority based on their perceived view of themselves. Why, after a fish is sold here for the first time or after a prolonged period is there aways race to be first out to breed and sell it. These are F1000's in most cases and the thrill of the chase somehow gets confused with grandiose importance. It is interesting to me how badly people can take information particularly when it is not what people wish to hear,as in Ryan's case. It would seem to me that personal ego has more to do with the response than the issue at hand, yet no slight was made or seemed to be intended. If my interpretation of something alters from that of another, then that is the issue. No one is slurring the reputation of anyone's Mother. Well done Ryan. As much as we think the regulations controlling our hobby are rigid, suppliers, importers etc are continually showing that it is pretty Mickey Mouse with non-id'd and mis-Id'd fish coming in on a regualr basis from a spectrum of oversea's sources that have proven to be inconsistant. We need people such as you to teach us the importance of fundamental research, and that there is no such thing as being 90% sure that you're 100% correct A keen breeder I would have thought would be well researched on such a fish. A more sceptical view could be that were such a fish researced then it's history and authenticity called into question then a price that would suitably reflect that fact would then be sought. As in this case perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Ryan U have done exactly the right thing. You questioned the fish and sought out expert advice on the topic and had your fears proven true As well all know this is not the first time this breeder has come into some discussion regarding hybrid fish and the last time it didnt turn out well Noone want to hear the fish they have been caring for and breeding is a Hybrid Most of the time they have spent alot of money getting the new species and alot of hard work raising up the fry to get some of their money back According to this breeder the "experts" on cichlidforum dont know what they are talking about and his knowledge is greater then theirs The one main problem is going to be stopping this guy selling these fish under the wrong name. Does he still have any of the Kadango's with the Utaka spots? Well done Ryan and your effort in getting the right answers Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Cheers guys I was wondering if I had done the right thing or not, it is very hard questioning someone who is supposed to be "higher" up and more respected in your hobby than yourself.. I was trying to ask for advice and not come across as an idiot, even in the face of his replies rubbishing my findings. To me a spade is a spade and sometimes this does offend people. I am not good with ID's but it only took me 5mins, checking the first profile I always check (cichlid-forum), it surprises me how many experienced keepers had them before me it should have stood out like anything from 1".. To me the fact that he posted an example pic of a nice male and these are completely different should have him scrambling I don't think he grew any out far enough to tell.. I would love to blindly believe in myself so much that nothing nobody said would have me admit that I would have a mistake. Oh well end of they day I didn't end up paying for them, I know what they are so I have a direction to go with them I have even found them a good home where I trust they wont be bred from (thanks livingart) just have to get them there and were sorted The thing that really grinds my gears is the people who have brought these fish and blindly believe they are pure and will keep breeding and selling them.. Oh well hopefully this thread has warned a few people. End of the day it is very much buyer beware I think I offended a few by doing what I always do and researching the hell out of ANYTHING that I buy from ANY source. At the end of the day I like to breed and spread pure fish and if anything is wrong with them I will stand by them and cannot fall back on who sold them to me. Anyway hopefully this has taught someone something, no doubt there are people reading it and getting angry or having a good old "talking behind someones back" session. I would urge any of those people who disagree to post and voice/discuss your objections Hopefully these fish can be viewed at livingart wildlife park in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant N Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Nice Ryan, you have handled yourself and this situaton very well. That is one more "trader" not to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 One thing we all have to remember Ryan is that noone is going to be right all the time I havent really come across many big breeders who knowingly breed hybrids But this one guy stands out to me cos he is the expert and wont take any advice from anyone Oh well hopefully some of the people will come across your posts here and realise what they have got isnt pure But then you have to convince why they are bad and to stop breeding them which in turn loses their money from the fish I long ago stopped worrying about the people talking behind my back I know there have been and more then likely still some around in this forum that dont like my straight up approach and probably wish I didnt post lol All you have to remember is your efforts this wek have improved the quality of cichlids in NZ and its great they are going to a safe home with Living Art They probably turn out nice and will look good in the display tank without the possibility of reaching the public Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 i am going to paint them the right colours the air brush is primed and i have test pots of metallic acrylic paint no i am not serious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kd123 Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 The fish in pic 1 has similar colouring and shape to a female Cynotilapia Afra for sale on trademe in chch.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 i got bored half way through the q's & a's on the auction & gave up reading it all but i do have one question in the general topic of hybrids. I don't agree with keeping hybrids at all & do cull any "odd" looking fry that i get but i am curious about what point is a hybrid acceptable if at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I don't agree with keeping hybrids at all & do cull any "odd" looking fry that i get but i am curious about what point is a hybrid acceptable if at all? Define accepted? There is noting wrong with hybrids, as long as people make it clear that they are and don't try to pass them off as species. Look at flowerhorns or blood parrots, not my thing but immensely popular fish. IMO hybridisation for the sake of it and done by amateurs is only going to be bad for the hobby. Someone with the time, money and space to devote to selectively breeding things like the crazy colourful fh's that are actually an "improvement" on nature are one thing, but just crossing X with Y to see what happens is just going to make a mess, just watch what happens with the "rotkeil" severums being sold on TradeMe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 i think the fish in question is a beautiful fish(even more so if it had of been the real thing) . hybrids are bound to show up at some stage and yes it would have been better if it wasnt sold as something else. i dont really agree with culling hybrids unless its the last resort - i mean known hybrid fry can be fed to something and i think you have done the right thing here by giving them to living art for a display tank , as there is plenty of people out there like me who dont have a huge interest in breeding (im slowly stocking a male only display tank) that would still have an interest in a colourful hybrid! on another note im wondering arent a lot of hybrids sterile ? , im thinking like a mule or i have sailfin mollies crossed with black lyretail the male i have is sterile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Cheers Brad I try my best, unfortunately I wont be able to or be trying to tell anyone else who passes these on what they are, it is just not worth the abuse or hassle it would cause, hopefully some have had a heads up over this thread Livingart you might have to get out the scalpel and trim them to make them the right shape too Maybe you can just get them and breed them and sell them as something new... (I know livingart wont do this which is why they are going there). Is anyone going that way anytime soon these fish are too big to ship. kd I have had a quick look only female afra I can see is part of a pair and is definate mbuna type shape and looks like my afra female when she is stressed or got a fright and lost her bars. Smidey as I have said to you in the past everyone has their views on hybrids some love them some hate them, it generally depends on what they are producing at the time. To me (and this is just my personal opinion) I keep and breed hybrids that breed true and I know are hybrids ie my dragonsbloods and OB peacocks which I like I pass them on as linebred hybrids and noone at any stage of buying them is lead to believe they are anything but that. Where I hate hybrids is when you buy a fish with a scientiffic name it is not what it is supposed to be and turns out to be hybrids. Ideally random hybrids shouldn't be passed around because they less we dilute our gene pulls with rubbish the better for the future of all species in NZ, but they will never disappear so people should at least be responsible. Spoon yes I don't want to destroy them, but there are not many places I would trust to not breed from them, I feel the temptation to jump on the band wagon and breed and sell them as asti C. to make some $$'s would tempt alot of people and put more hybrids out there. A friend of mine suggested livingart and I know he is a very responsible keeper of many animals and hopefully they will be enjoyed. Most african cichlids can and do cross producing viable babies I am unsure how this happens I know others are sterile, I think the fact most africans are genetically similar might have something to do with it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Smidey as I have said to you in the past everyone has their views on hybrids some love them some hate them, it generally depends on what they are producing at the time. To me (and this is just my personal opinion) I keep and breed hybrids that breed true and I know are hybrids ie my dragonsbloods and OB peacocks which I like I pass them on as linebred hybrids and noone at any stage of buying them is lead to believe they are anything but that. Where I hate hybrids is when you buy a fish with a scientiffic name it is not what it is supposed to be and turns out to be hybrids. Ideally random hybrids shouldn't be passed around because they less we dilute our gene pulls with rubbish the better for the future of all species in NZ, but they will never disappear so people should at least be responsible. .. yeah, everyone has their views & i don't think anyone is qualified to determine whether each of our views is the right way or not, its just how we each see things. I don't hate hybrids, soem are beautiful i just think they are not good on the open market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Double Posting Removed... Mod Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 bought off trademe .. sorry you get what you get ... also an I am so trying to find words to not get warned this thread seems to be turning into a real stroking fest ... you bought off trade me, and maybe the fish didn't end up as hoped in your over stocked tank ryan? I was going to reply when I saw the first post here, now it seems to be just turning into "oh you the man" thread ... and I think I even know and have bought off the seller ... anyway not that any of that matters but it was bought on trade me and also original poster if it wasn't you why bring it here? too much coro st? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Doesnt matter where the fish are bought from If this seller is mislabeling fish then people everywhere need to know This seller has history on this forum for exactly the same thing plus this being a fish forum to talk about fish things means this is exactly where it should be posted Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 bought off trademe .. sorry you get what you get ... not when the ad is misleading also an I am so trying to find words to not get warned this thread seems to be turning into a real stroking fest ... are you implying something with the words used? you bought off trade me, and maybe the fish didn't end up as hoped in your over stocked tank ryan? overstocked are you hoping for a reaction? I was going to reply when I saw the first post here, now it seems to be just turning into "oh you the man" thread ... and I think I even know and have bought off the seller ... anyway not that any of that matters but it was bought on trade me and also original poster if it wasn't you why bring it here? it must matter to cause you to mention it too much coro st? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted March 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 You could of highlighted Coro too, I was thinking more along the lines of Shortland Street. nb; Brad, it's some poor attempt at a program in NZ. A hospital version of Neighbours. Oh mj, I brought it here as I said buyer beware. Also the person in question was stupid enough to mention me & my sidekick. I haven't really had to post in here for ages as others are doing a fine job here & I have been busy. I didn't like the persons answers, the fish are not those that are up for sale. If anyway I stop one person from buying the fish in question then I feel have at least helped one person out. & that is another point of forums. Helping others out. I am really a nice person, its so hard to tell people on line things. So I usually just get straight to the point. Its not like face to face where I can take someone to a fish tank or a referrence book & go see look , now you see. But hey, I have seen a LFS import a cichlid as a red peacock. It looks like a red zeb cross electric yellow. He is selling them off as a variant of tropheops. of course I posted, why. As with these other hybrids, they may introduced to pure lines, then that lineage is stuffed. I have seen to many cases of dodgy cichlids here; ie: Sciaenochromis fryeri, most here have Utaka spots on them. How? cross with lithobates. As for others with Hybrids, each to there own. As long as they are kept on their own. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 bought off trademe .. sorry you get what you get ... also an I am so trying to find words to not get warned this thread seems to be turning into a real stroking fest ... you bought off trade me, and maybe the fish didn't end up as hoped in your over stocked tank ryan? I was going to reply when I saw the first post here, now it seems to be just turning into "oh you the man" thread ... and I think I even know and have bought off the seller ... anyway not that any of that matters but it was bought on trade me and also original poster if it wasn't you why bring it here? too much coro st? What a constructive post I feel someone is posting because of who they know not what they know Have you already purchased some of these Asti's MJ? Whatever you would like to talk about or imply regarding your stroking should probably stay with you in your own home and not be voiced on a forum with younger members its not really appropriate.. Of course I got the fish and they didn't turn out as expected, they are hybrids being advertised and passed on as a pure fish with "no doubt". Just in case you were wondering I didn't buy these fish off trademe, and it wouldn't have mattered if I did most of the descent african breeders have sold things on there and should still stand by their fish regardless of where they sold them? Makes no sense at all that everything on trademe is rubbish if the seller is good and has good fish then selling on trademe doesn't make them dodgy or ok to sell rubbish, sounds like you just don't like trademe? I would love for you to teach me about tank stocking some day, very happy for you to try and justify your comment about my tank (I have more than one?) being overstocked when to my knowledge I have never met you nor have you seen my tanks? And my tanks and fish are happy and well stocked/balanced if they were overstocked I would have problems, have been keeping fish for a few years now so think I have a rough idea what I am doing and how to keep the fish happy I think Frenchy was trying to warn people about these dodgy fish by posting it here, if you had shelled out good $$'s for them and found out they were hybrids years and $$'s later you would feel ripped off. At least people can now make informed decisions on these fish and at least know to research things and know what to expect when buying fish and make their own decisions. I am glad you know the seller as I said in my previous post I have got plenty of fish from him and they are great I have no problems with him there is nothing personal here, I just wanted to get to the bottom of the fish I got and I have made my decision and got an outcome I am happy with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-town... Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 I have seen your tanks when you were in auckland ryan wernt over stocked then and looked stunning. also the fact you were running 3 filters on 1 tank and the fish were bigger than any other cichlids Ive seen. so they imo are in good care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 heh no I was posting on my "own thoughts" of this thread, not personal knowledge (actually tbh was it renamed as I could not find it after my post that night?) drunken post ... comment about you overstocking was in reference to a PM from you admitting to a tank of yours that was overstocked ... anyway I wasn't trying to stir - just voicing my thoughts there and then (as I do - I say it how I see it) lol and as for younger audience .. heh that is why I contemplated the correct wording to get my thoughts (at that moment) across I agree with the sentiments, be careful when buying - and to be fair the original post linked to trademe .. so I guess I'm confused as to who actually purchased said fish and where they purchased it from? why link to trademe if the fish weren't bought there? for what it's worth - I highly respect the knowledge of the people I "questioned" (or whatever you want to call it), just found the approach or tact of the original post was misleading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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