whetu Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Unfortunately it looks like I'm going to have to move again in May. I am TOTALLY OVER renting and having to move whenever it suits the landlords! :roll: But that's another subject... The only good thing I can see about moving is that since I'm going to have to break my tank down and start all over again, I can take the opportunity to change around whatever I want. So now is the time to plan my new, fantastic super-duper planted tank! First, the substrate. I might have to adapt some things to suit my tight budget, but before I start cutting back I would like to know what would be the ideal, then make compromises as necessary. So... what's the perfect substrate for a planted tank? I just watched a video on the Practical Fish Keeping website (sorry, I can't find it again to link...). The guy in the video used the following substrates: Bottom layer: Tropica plant substrate Middle layer: He made up a mixture of various nutrient-rich substrates along with some inert silica sand. The mix was: JBL (?) Flora? (couldn't quite make out what he said) Aqua Clay ADL Aqua Soil Eco complete Top layer: Black silica sand The video was made in the UK so I don't even know if we have all those things in NZ. Would the bottom layer be something like Dalton's aquatic mix? Help and advice appreciated. I'm going to spend the next few weeks dreaming about how lovely my tank's going to be after the move, so I don't go crazy thinking about how much I hate moving! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 ive just setup another nano with daltons in it as the base, with some laterite. black sand on top of that, and the plants are crypts, swords, aponogetons, dwarf sag, and pygmy chain sword. if you use an aquatic mix - moving the tank will be a massive problem, cause if you stir it up that's pretty much it- if you use sand to keep it down. also moving things around and re landscaping may be a problem. on the other hand if you use gravel, and you move - you could always start afresh and add new aquatic mix and clean the gravel with a pasta strainer or something like that. i havent had the tank running with daltons as a base for that long, so im afraid i have no "experiences" to share with you. it becomes very jelly like underwater, so even the smallest fish can or filter can disturb it. it is very small and particulate. i can pm you pics of my setup if you like... I dont see the point in starting a new thread about it - its not that major, lol :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 ... i can pm you pics of my setup if you like... OOh yes please! I always like perving at (oops I mean admiring :oops: ) other people's tanks! :bounce: But I'm still left wondering - what exactly is Dalton's? I mean, what purpose does it serve? Is it just a fairly inert substance that forms a layer for plants to get their roots into? Or does it actually contain nutrients etc? Do I need to add other nutrient-rich substances to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Its this clay like soil that settles quite well, but goes mushy underwater. it has slow release nutrients. Well that's what i thought i read on the packet. a nice fat bag cost me only 15 bucks at palmers, but apparently i got ripped off by a whole $1.05 :lol: :lol: ill put the pics on photobucket and then ill pm the images to you :bounce: PS- you dont NEED daltons etc to have a nice planted tank. Ill send you another pic of my main tank without daltons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Here's what the Tropica website says about Tropica Plant Substrate: PLANT SUBSTRATE acts as a long term nutrition store for waterplants, so ensuring magnificent and healthy waterplant growth. PLANT SUBSTRATE is a natural concentrate of clay and sphagnum, laid at the bottom of the gravel layer when you build your aquarium. Clay and sphagnum slowly release nutrients to waterplant roots and binds nutrition in the water in the bottom layer. Removing nutrition from water reduces the risk of undesirable algae growth. Is this similar to Dalton's or something else altogether? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 similar to daltons. but daltons can and will feed algae quite happily as it is high in nutrient. so the water has to be maintained pretty well, and it has to be covered with the sand completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hmm... ok, looking at your pics I can understand that Dalton's is not essential for growing plants! On the other hand, I need to take the tank apart for the move anyway, and the current substrate (dark gravel) needs to be boosted because it's a bit thin in places... so I might as well set it up properly. Sounds like Dalton's would be a good base layer and at that price it's very affordable. So, in your non-Dalton's planted tanks what sort of substrate do you use? do you add any kind of slow-release ferts to the substrate or do you rely on liquid ferts for your impressive results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 just normal biggish gravel, and fish poo. liquid ferts include flourish excel, PMDD, flora pride, and plant gro. I dont really think the flora pride and plant gro have too much of an effect on plant growth. I mainly put it down to the lights and the fish poo. I do occasionally use DIY CO2 on the big tank. and then when im stuck i ask the plant guru's on here, about the sort of plant and its requirements.. eg root feeders etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsonMassif Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 This is what I have now and have found it works a treat. For a four foot tank @ 2 watts per gallon lighting @ 6500k: One 15L bag of Dalton's aquatic mix from Bunnings. 2 kg of aragonite sand on top. 4 cm of inert sand like west coast black sand on top of that. Plant the plants. Dose Excel daily along with MgSO4, Flourish, Kno3, KCl, plus 1mL of Iron. This keeps my algae at bay and the plants growing slowly but steadily. PMDD caused too much of a nutrient imbalance for my water chemistry. I use Chucks plant calculator (which you can find online) to work out the dosing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 I use JBL Aqua Basis with sand on top to hold it down. It supplies micronutrients as does daltons. If you provide too much nutrient before your plants are established (and this can take some time) and using the nutrient you will have a lot of problems with algae. Once the plants are growing well you can add fertilizers in a number of ways. A lot of people overseas use very strong light, CO2 and heaps of fertilizers, and that is great when the balance has been found but it can be a rough ride getting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigd Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 If you have the money Seachem's Flourite is an excellent substrate for a planted aquarium. In saying this when i set up my planted tank about 5 years ago i went el`cheapo. I had about 7-8cm of potting mix and 2-3cm of fine Gravel on top. If you have heaps of plants for the tank this maybe ok as they can absorb the initial nutrient leech, otherwise you will have to do regular water changes for the first few months until the substrate stabilizers. This is not the ideal option but on a budget and a bit of work it can do the trick. You also have to hold off adding fish for a month or two and test for a stable ph. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 This is what I have now and have found it works a treat. For a four foot tank @ 2 watts per gallon lighting @ 6500k: One 15L bag of Dalton's aquatic mix from Bunnings. 2 kg of aragonite sand on top. 4 cm of inert sand like west coast black sand on top of that. ... For every answer I think of a multitude of questions! :lol: My tank has a footprint 1200 x 450mm. If I put 15 litres of Dalton's in there, how deep would it be? I know this is a very simple calculation but it seems to be beyond my brain capacity at the moment. :-? What is the purpose of the aragonite sand? Is it just to hold the Dalton's down or does it add nutrient? You mention that the black sand on top is inert - does that imply that the aragonite is not inert? Does that make it ert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 If you have the money Seachem's Flourite is an excellent substrate for a planted aquarium. In saying this when i set up my planted tank about 5 years ago i went el`cheapo. I had about 7-8cm of potting mix and 2-3cm of fine Gravel on top. If you have heaps of plants for the tank this maybe ok as they can absorb the initial nutrient leech, otherwise you will have to do regular water changes for the first few months until the substrate stabilizers. This is not the ideal option but on a budget and a bit of work it can do the trick. You also have to hold off adding fish for a month or two and test for a stable ph. Cheers Thanks Craig. I already have all the fish, so I won't be able to delay adding them unfortunately. They will be in unfiltered, unheated buckets for the move so I will need to get them back into the tank asap. I have heard that flourite is an excellent substrate so I'm thinking I might get some of that and mix it into my middle layer. That allows me to control how much $$ I spend by kind of diluting it down with other substrates. I already have some fairly well established plants like swords, and a lot of fast-growing stem plants. Perhaps by letting the stem plants run wild for a while they might slurp up some of the excess nutrients while the slower growing plants are getting re-established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I use JBL Aqua Basis with sand on top to hold it down. It supplies micronutrients as does daltons... Alan, what texture is JBL Aqua Basis? Will it do the same thing when stirred up as the Daton's? ie send a big cloud all over the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Ok I have my little notebook out and I'm putting together everyone's ideas. So far my 'perfect substrate' looks something like this: Top layer (2 - 3 cm deep) A thick covering of black sand (1 - 2 mm grains) Perhaps topped off with my existing dark gravel Middle layer (approx 2 cm deep) A mixture of nutrient-rich stuff (proportions will depend on what I can afford): Seachem Flourite Laterite Aragonite sand? JBL Aqua Basis? Bottom layer (approx 2 cm deep) Dalton's Aquatic Mix Perhaps with JBL Aqua Basis mixed in? So the total substrate depth will be 6 - 7 cm. The Dalton's will be under about about 4 - 5 cm of other stuff, so if the loaches start digging they will have to go a long way down before they start making a big, cloudy mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 JBL aquabasis is far superior to daltons. your planned setup sounds good and do-able, just dont move the tank, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 JBL aquabasis is far superior to daltons. your planned setup sounds good and do-able, just dont move the tank, lol. Yes, that's going to be an on-going problem. (Did I mention that I hate moving?) Maybe each time I move I will just put the same substrate back in, and put another layer of sand on top! That's at least three moves before there is more substrate in the tank than water! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 you could always flush out the old daltons and put in new stuff each time. but in that case use just gravel to weigh it down, and then all you need is a garden hose and a pasta strainer to salvage your gravel it is a fair bit of work though... especially during moving.. I know i'd hate to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsonMassif Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 If you are using a clouding-type product/material for the middle layer IMO it would be more advantageous for you to have a 4cm top layer. This reduces the chance of current, flow, and fish moving the thin top layer and causing clouding. Also if you are going to use Dalton's I would suggest a 1cm middle layer. 15L Dalton's Aq. Mix is about 2cm thick. Sounds like a good plan. I would recommend you to plan your placement of plants, decor and current on paper before you do it. Because once the plants start growing in Dalton's the roots go nuts and it makes such a mess moving anything later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 If you are using a clouding-type product/material for the middle layer IMO it would be more advantageous for you to have a 4cm top layer. This reduces the chance of current, flow, and fish moving the thin top layer and causing clouding... I'mactually trying to avoid having a clouding-type material in my middle layer - I do have diggity fishes (loaches) so I would like to confine all the cloudy stuff to the bottom layer if possible. Which of my proposed middle-layer stuff is likely to cause clouding? Seachem Flourite Laterite Aragonite sand JBL Aqua Basis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zabman Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I used Daltons aquatic Mix for my bottom layer, and used another Daltons sand for the top (only had 2 layers). Has worked well thus far. by the way - If you need any help moving your tanks or anything fishy related when you do move, let me know i'd be glad to help out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetu Posted March 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I used Daltons aquatic Mix for my bottom layer, and used another Daltons sand for the top (only had 2 layers). Has worked well thus far. by the way - If you need any help moving your tanks or anything fishy related when you do move, let me know i'd be glad to help out. :bounce: Aaawww you're the best, Zabman! What does your Dalton's sand look like? What colour and approximately what grain size? I'm looking for something quite dark to set off hte plants and fish nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I just use standard hard gravel of 2-4mm size and add fertiliser tablets pushed into about half way down. Anything else eventually runs out after a couple of years and you have to rip it all out and start again or resort to tablets. I don't like Daltons as it has a lot of silica in it which leaches into the water creating brown algae. Many people I've talked to who have brown algae problem also use Daltons mix... I once had the same substrate set up growing plants well for eight years - then I had to move... I use the leaf-zone tablets and another I make out of clay and macro nutrients like magnesium, potassium and calcium. I also add trace elements like iron and low levels of phosphate to my home made tablets. Alternatively pond tablets that are high in phosphate can be smashed up and small pieces used sparingly to get the phosphate you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caper Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Warren would you post a pic please? Caper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemines Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 I used the RedSea Flora base stuff...it is fantastic!...it keeps the pH neutral and slowly releases nutrients, and is highly porous and it looks natural too! no other gravel etc required. However, it is VERY expensive. here are some pix (sorry they are bigger than 640 pixels): http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w50/ ... ure1-1.png first planting 3 weeks later... http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w50/ ... tedawe.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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