axolotl-danio Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Hey I have a spare 60cmL by 30cmW by 30cmH aquarium and i would like to get some hillstream loaches for it. 1. is the tank big enough? 2. does the flow just have to go in one direction with the powerhead intake at one end and the output at the other or can I just have one pump at one end and have a whirlpool effect? 3. What temperature should it be? 4. How many litres per hour should the pump do? 5. is sand an ok substrate if I have some flat rocks on top of it? and any other info would be helpful thanks. :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wok Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Best to PM purplecatfish. He breeds them, he would tell you what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 The whirlpool effect will happen anyway, having the inlet at the other end just makes it slightly less. It kinda winds up with different levels of current at different areas, some fast, some slow, some left, some right, allows the fish to choose the level of current they want. I still think a two-foot tank is a bit small to do it properly, but it is definitely do-able, just a bit more swirly. As I said in the other thread, turnover of 16-20 times total volume per hour is recommended. Sand might get blown about a bit. Though I haven't tried it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axolotl-danio Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 The sand is heavy. Are these loaches likley to escape? these is a small gap between the hob filter and the lid. The powerhead I was thinking of getting is a SEIO M620 WAVE POWERHEAD 2400L/HR but do you think that would be too powerful? I was thinking of adding a few wcmm as well :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplecatfish Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Have you taken a look at http://www.loaches.com/articles they have some excellent articles. The main reason for the high flow is to have highly oxygenated water, you need to have disturbance on the surface of the water to drive off the CO2 and help the O2 dissolve. I've also found that the imported hillstream loaches can be sensitive to nitrates, so water changes are really important, even more so in a 2ft tank. And I wouldn't worry about them escaping. Personally I would prefer a three foot tank as a minimum size; but I like big tanks and consider 3ft to be small. I'm also not sure about sand, I use 3-5mm brightstone with large river worn rocks for my substrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axolotl-danio Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Thanks Do you think a SEIO M620 WAVE POWERHEAD 2400L/HR would be too powerful? :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Sounds like a good start to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I have a 2ft tank with these fish, it has a UGF down one end with Crypts in pots and large rocks on top, and a 400lph pump with the air line jammed up the bottom of it pointing down the length of the tank,it looks like it has a fine bubble wall across the back of it. The loaches like to sit on the log right in front of the pump and get their whiskers blasted by the bubbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axolotl-danio Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 so would 2400L/HR be too powerful :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Your setup is 54 litres if filled to the brim - I would consider it overkill, all you want to do is make sure the water gets oxygenated very well. And if you had sand, it think you would end up with a sandstorm and skinless Hillstream loaches!! Did you check out the link that Purplecatfish posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axolotl-danio Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 The sand is very heavy and I have read all the hillstream information on that site. The annoying thing is the 2400L/HR pump is the cheapest. :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 2400 per ltr is not to much, the flow may be though. You could split the flow and have 2 - 4 outlets from the one pump thru the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axolotl-danio Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 The one i was looking at has an adjustable flow.I think the direction automatically changes the pump i am looking at getting is a Seio M620. http://riopump.net/products_pumps/seio_models.html :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 so if the tank holds about 50 litres (rounding down but that is still an over estimate because you won't fill it that full) (pump)L/hr divided by (tank volume)lt = total volume turnover per hour 2400l/hr divided by 50lt = 48 total volume turnover per hour Now the guideline I gave you was minimum 16-20 total volume turnover per hour. That is doubling or tripling the guideline. The guideline is just a minimum, of course you can go higher than that, but you haven't kept these fish before, you haven't tried a fast-flowing tank before. Obviously 48 times turnover is going to be stupidly fast, and you are wanting to do this in a rather small tank.... did you do the calculations yourself or just keep asking until someone else did them for you? :roll: :roll: And a pump that strong will put out a LOT of heat into a small volume of water, potentially raising the temp over what the loaches want, decreasing the dissolved oxygen and stressing the fish. Sure it is cheaper but in my opinion it will be far too strong and carries a lot of risk, which is ultimately more expensive (if dollars are all you count in). And a changing-direction pump is what you want for marine, not freshwater. These fish are used to water flowing at roughly the same speed in the same direction, a wash effect will screw them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver21 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 ha i found that out last nite, i had a cosmo 3500f 2300l/h filter in a 2ft tank to quickly polish the water for me, overnite the temp was about 35deg c, and no there wasnt any fish in there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axolotl-danio Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ok i will look around for a slower pump. I did do the calculations but i have never really dealt with powerheads before so i was not really sure what the flow would look like. Do you think a 1000 LPH would be a better option as that's 20 times an hour? Would that heat the water too much? Also is it ok if the pump just has a narrow stream or should i have a spray bar? Thanks everybody :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 And a pump that strong will put out a LOT of heat into a small volume of water, potentially raising the temp over what the loaches want, decreasing the dissolved oxygen and stressing the fish. How much is 8 watts going to heat the water? Not much at all. Certainly not enough to be considered a LOT of heat. They have a very wide, relatively low speed flow. Compare the specs of a seio M620 to say a via aqua 1300 powerhead. Sieo outlet area about 12cm, flow 2400 lph power draw 8 watts. VA1300 outlet 4cm, flow 1100 lph, power draw 15 watts. So, flow speed from the seio is twice the volume through 3 times the area(So a lot slower) and drawing half the power. I've filled up my sink with 10 liters of water(About all it will fit) and put my Seio M820 in it which is 3200lph. Looks like scaled up to 5 times the volume it would probably give a pretty reasonable amount of flow for current loving fish. Certainly slower flows than anything but lazy slow flowing stream. Current looks to be (in the sink) about 6-9 inches per second which is in the region of half a mile per hour. so probably a fraction of that in 5 times the volume. I'm considering throwing it in my SA cichlid tank which at the moment already has something around 5000 lph turnover in 400L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axolotl-danio Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 So do you think it would be ok Ira? and do the seio pumps actually rotate or do you adjust it manually? :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axolotl-danio Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Current looks to end up at about 6-9 inches per second which is in the region of half a mile per hour. I readv online that in the hillstream loaches natural habitat the water can flow about one meter per second. I am terrible converting imperial to metric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Nope it doesn't change direction on its own. No need in freshwater really, especially in this case when you're kind of trying to replicate a river. Worst case if it is too much flow you could rubber band a bit of filter wool or something over the intakes it would decrease the flow AND give you more filtration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I readv online that in the hillstream loaches natural habitat the water can flow about one meter per second. I am terrible converting imperial to metric 1 meter per second is roughly 39 inches per second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I also agree that the pump would be ok, large opening where the water comes out of the pump. When i had one of the rio's in my tank i found it worked best when turned down a bit, at full blast the impellor jumped a bit. Not a problem with all i though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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