Fay Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 FAB!!!!!!! Said to Frog see I'm not the only nut, he said I'm right up there. It took 9 big guys to lift our tank through the shop up the STAIRS and through the slider lucky it had double doors or our next op was high ab, but we also had over head power wires. Look forward to seeing the progress I'm glad the heart stopping part is over let the fun begin. Nice choice for cabinet looks great with the walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Might need to upsize the TV. Looks a little small in the corner will that monster. Thats a 34'' Sony ES flatscreen too... Good thing we have the 3M wide projector in the HT room only metres away Piemania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 nice work bro, keep the pic's coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Hey, Pies, you going to be buying more liverock(or baserock) and sand for the new tank? I'm assuming you'll be ordering most of it, I was wondering if we could throw a bit extra of each on for me and maybe save each of us a little shipping? Oh, and since you obviously won't be needing that 34" TV with the new tank and the projector and all, I'll give ya $50 for it. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 IRA - I have no plans on purchasing any rock or sand at the moment. I am hoping I will have enough. If I need to order more rock or sand i'll let you know but there isn't any money in the bank for it right now. As for the TV, we will be may end up replacing it with a plasma very soon just to save space, I have an offer for the 3k cash pickup for the TV at the moment, but if you want it I can organise an auction. RRP $5999 + Cabinet. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Started to glue in the tank valve fittings for the bottom of the tank for the closed loop pumps and for the stand pipe etc. Need to get into Mico Plumbing tommorow if I can find the time and grab or order some bits. Closed loops - The plan for the closed loops is to 'suspend' them from the fittings through the tank. 25mm feeds and 20mm outlets. This will be useing PVC pressure piping, glued when possilbe, screwed only when nessessary (e.g. into the pump itself). The pumps only require one elbow on the intake (which is larger than the exhaust) so the pumps efficiently should be maxed out. The plan for the closed loops is to have them all plumbed in and finished by Friday. Overflow Box - I hope to have this organised this week, but can't see it being glued into the tank until late next week. Of course there is not way to fill the tank without the overflow installed. Return pump - I have an IWAKI 30 RLT here which I hope to use as a temp return pump, if it can pump that high! Because the pump I intend to purchase (IWAKI 100) uses the same plumbing (25mm x 25mm) I can finalise the plumbing using this pump and just install the new pump when it arrives. Which is likley to be well after Christmas based on finanical reasons. Lighting - Still sussing this one out. Again because of financial constraints I doubt I will finalise lighting until well into the new year, but I do have some 'spare' halides to light the tank with until I sort something else better out. Its not going to be perfect or pretty, but it should get me buy. The sooner I can get the tank filled, the sooner I can get some live rock out of my 2 sumps! Cycling. I hope the cycle process will be kept to a minimum as the new tank will circulate with the old tank and share water. Rock will be comming from a cycled tank into the same water, so it should be minimal. Collection of water - 1400 litres + is quite a few trips to the ocean, or 6 days of making water! So expect this to happen over quite a few weeks I am going to try and avoid adding fish to the new tank for as long as my will, will allow. I have a tank with no small fish in it, and the life is awesome. I am going to try and really get the 'pod' life population booming before I introduce any fish. Although that being said, the clowfish will enter the tank early, they are not particulary effective predators and I worry about my H.Magnificia anemone surviving without the clowns. So thats the plan. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_from_nz Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Collection of water - 1400 litres + is quite a few trips to the ocean, or 6 days of making water! So expect this to happen over quite a few weeks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 hehehehehe 1400 litres isn't 14 tonnes, its 1.4 ton (1400kg -ish). About 5 trips to the ocean given the containers I have. FYI a 'ton' is a metric and a 'tonne' is imperial. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_from_nz Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 sorry mis read i thought i saw 14000 liters (1st day of work after a 2 month holiday so im half naked ) re the metric imperial thing never really cared to switch with ton and tonne as they are still the same thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Dan_From_NZ - The thing is a metric ton/tonne weights less than an impreial ton/tonne, so they are not really the same. 20 Imperial ton/tonne weighs 16.3 Metric ton/tonne. pieman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Infact maybee I have it around the wrong way? Maybee Tonne is metric and Ton is imperial? Hrmmm confused myself now. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 They're not the same thing, they're just in the same ballpark. A ton is 2000 pounds, a tonne is 1000 kilograms 2205 pounds. That's just being pedantic. Wait, I feel like being pedantic...Hehe, So a ton is a unit of force, a tonne is a unit of mass so it's comparing...apples to uhh...Oranges that look and taste like apples. Ok, I'm done. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_from_nz Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 ah really, I always thought they were the same thing :oops: at least i wont make that mistake again cheers, daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 wow that tank is going to look awesome! the lifting job....... I really feel for your lifters, that would be a heavy tank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Closed loops - There are many reasons why you may want to use closed loops for circulation: Little heat transfer from the pumps because they are external, easy maintenance, aestheticly pleasing because they are not in the tank so can't be seen, flow rates are mostly uneffected by head pressures etc. The big disadvantages are plumbing (its hard to make it tidy) and positioning the flow. When planing this tank I knew I was going to use my TUNZE Stream pumps for circulation, but STREAMS have big disadvantages too (other than just price), they look horrid and are hard to hide. So I wanted to use closed loops to help move water around the rockwork and the streams to provide flow in the open areas of the tank. Because of the flow problems at the back/bottom of the tank, you can get all sorts of things building up, and its hard to get flow into these areas after you tank is built and the rocks in. So I need flow under the rocks, I want the plumbing tidy (less can go wrong, can be frustrating with pipes and cords everywhere) and i don't want to be able to see the plumbing/pumps when looking at the tank. I also wanted to ensure that my plumbing allowed for the best flow possilbe from the tank. Excessive plumbing, plumbing with the wrong size pipes can all drastically effect the pumps performance. Here is what I came up with: I wasn't afraid of drilling the tanks bottom, but it did make the construction of the cabinet a bit tricky as we needed to know exactly where the holes where so they didn't get in the way of the steel frame. So the pump draws water through a 25mm pipe with only a single elbow, which is larger than the output diamater of the pump, ensuring that no microbubbles or cavitation can happen. Also provides less 'suction' from the pipe drawing water, so less likley to suck in something it shouldn't. Water is returned through a 20mm pipe straight up with no elbows in the plumbing, this in theory will ensure that I am getting maximum flow from the pump. Here is a pic showing how unobtrusive the plumbing is in the cabinet. making access to the cabinet and the pumps easy and with little frustrating mess. The pump is an Ehiem 1262. There are 3 of these closed loop systems running through the bottom of the tank in the same configuration. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 nice work! how about a pic of the tank ON the stand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Looking good Pies. I second a picture of the tank in place! I like the closed loop setup, very minimalistic. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Less is more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 yeah, more or less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Got all of the tank inlet valves glued into the tank, and have almost finished a 2nd closed loop. I am using a dremal to shorten the tank inlet valves so I can get the closed loop pumps as high as the plumbing allows, keeping everything tidy. Finished the 'Durso Standpipe'. Am using 50mm PVC. Damn big standpipe! So today/tommorow I will pickup the plastic I need to build the overflow box, then get it cut and folded, should be in the tank late next week if I can get out to the hut for an hr, work has been very busy. Return plumbing is the last piece of the 'puzzle' I need to source. I have decided to use 32mm PVC for this to feed the 2 sea swirls. In the name of better water flow and tidy plumbing I will bring it in from one end and not use a T joint. I also need to get the in-tank plumbing sorted, inlets for the closed loops and spray bars. And they reef racks will also be glued into the tank. So the next few weeks is all about plumbing. Ohhh and the floor strengthing continues Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Pies, I was talking a flow engineer mate last night about your return plumbing, he's suggested that your plan of plumbing the return to one end will cause you more problems than it’s worth. This because you would get uneven pressure at the outlets, the first outlet getting higher pressure (the water to the second has to travel through more pipe/turns and therefore higher friction). He suggests using a ‘Y’ junction instead of a ‘T’ and using ‘wide radius elbows’ which have around half the friction of normal elbows. I also discussed using a larger diameter pipe than your pump output to lower friction. He says that any friction gain you made by lowering the pressure (going to bigger pipe) would be lost when you convert back to higher pressure (smaller size at the outlet), it pretty much evens out accept (!) that you also add turbulence and other nasty fluid things changing sizes making it a waste of effort. Craig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 from what i've read, outlet piping should not be larger than the pump outlet (depending on application of course, but valid in this case). eg: 25mm outlet on the iwaki, use maximum 25mm pipe. as above, to do with turbulence and the likes. you need to maintain some form of pressure in the return pipe. He says that any friction gain you made by lowering the pressure (going to bigger pipe) would be lost when you convert back to higher pressure (smaller size at the outlet), it pretty much evens out accept (!) that you also add turbulence and other nasty fluid things changing sizes making it a waste of effort. IMO, yes and no - depends on head height. if the pump is pumping up 10 feet, then reducing the pipe immediately leaving the pump will obviously mean instant pressure increase (where the water is flowing at its maximum) HOWEVER having the pipe reduced say 9 feet up (1 foot before the sea-swirl) will mean a pressure increase/more friction but at a much lesser effect (because the flow rate at 9 - 10 feet head is reduced anyways) btw, i've bought some 25mm pressure piping and new 45 degree elbows (as per pies recommendation on my post) to increase the plumbing up 5mm larger and increase water flow. it will be reduced back down to 20mm just prior to entering the sea-swirl. i believe this will improve flow - will post my results (anyone got a flowmeter i can borrow? :lol: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Nice idea but liquids don’t compress therefore where you add friction in relation to the hight of head makes no difference. It’s a bit confusing and very hard to explain! But the amount of water your getting out is the sum of speed x volume. The water going in is the same sum of speed x volume (it has to be because you can’t get more or less out than you put in) therefore at any point in the system you have the same sum of speed x volume. To make this simpler to understand if the pipe size was the same at every point (ie constant volume) the speed of the water in it must be the same at every point therefore is doesn’t matter where you add the friction! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 yeah, i see what you mean. the head height idea isnt relational to the actual height itself, more the volume of water it has to push up to that head height (greater weight of water (hence greater height) + gravity back down = harder the pump has to work) so if the pipe size is reduced, it doesnt matter where that reduction is at any given point in the pipe? (ignore elbows for now) the outlet of the iwaki is 1" and the inlet to the sea-swirl is 3/4" so it doesnt matter whether the pipe size is 3/4" or 1" heading up? (take out frictional forces) - its still going to be the same flow rate because of the reduction from 1" to 3/4" anywhere in the pipe??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Thanks for the comments. The advice I have recieved says that by having large bore outputs (say 40mm insted of a 25mm outlet) reduces the amount of friction and increases the pumps ability to pump water under pressure (head height). The head remains consistant regardless of the pipes diamater (that is 10m head is 10m head, regardless of if you pumping through 25mm or 250mm pipe, friction and flow (flow effected by friction from straight pipes and elboes, bends or creases/compressions in the pipe). I was told, and I have no reason not to belive them, that the wider the output pipe, the better the pump will behave. But I am sure there is a line which it stops making a difference. Suphew - Interesting about my return plumbing. I will draw up some quick plans so you can see exactly what I am going to do (planning), but I am still very much at the stage where I can be convinced to change it. I'll try and get it up tonight. As for the wide radias elbows, I have them in use already, and will buy them for the new setup once I confirm the size of the return plumbing (almost definatly 32mm from a 25mm feed). The only issue with the elbows for the return plumbing is I don't have enough room to use the wide radius ones to feed the sea swirl, so was only going to be able to use one. Again pictures will explain this better. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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