Pies Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I could suggest a topic for the new thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 just goes to show, the lesson to be learnt "dont believe everything you read on the Internet". i took my maximum pipe outlet advice from another forum posting a similar question. if i posted my reply and it wasnt debated, then people may have taken it as being a valid comment then continued to pass on incorrect information. the lesson for ME to be learnt is dont always believe crap posted in forums and more importantly research information from trusty sources. i dont mind admiting that im wrong, just dont like being taken the piss out of when i state an opinion based on my own theory (hence why i start my opinionated posts "from what i read" or "in my opinion") Anyways, Pies please continue to post some pic's of the return plumbing when its done and let me know your results. Will be interested to see what you end up with... oh and my apologies for cramming your thread full of shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Still have a sore head from reading that link yesterday! Still seems strange to me that going from a larger pipe to a smaller pipe "sudden contaction" adds similar or less friction than a simple elbow. Hanging my head in shame now, but I put the blame squarely on the NZ educational system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 ha haaa! not! all in all, your advice has been extremely helpful. i've read that page 3 times already and am still trying to process it. pies, got any new pic's to share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 Here is a look at the DURSO. 50mm back to the 40mm return plumbing. Pretty big, good thing my overflow box is made to measure Here is a picture of the in construction overflow box. Marine blue PVC (matches the paintwork), laser cut, precision folded. Its a 2 piece system, with a break at 500mm up. This allows me to access the inside of the overflow box, a task only needed to be performed very rarely, but still usefull. It will also mean the for a while, if I want, I can run the tank with the overflow and have the tank only 2/3 fill. I may do this for a while when setting up the rock work, to save all the mess of the tank being full. Overall I am EXTREMLY happy with the design and the final product. A big thanks to Kingi and the guys at DayGlo Plastics, for helping so much, and being so generous and friendly. The 2 glass structs are there to help the top sit'n'clip into the bottom half and form the seal. Also as PVC does't glue very well to glass, it will provide some strength to the design as it will no doubt have rock resting on it. It will be glued into the tank in the next day or 2. Which makes the tank, dangerously close to being ready for water. Perhapps only another 2 weeks. Also had the sparky around and finished, so have dedicated 20amp circut on RCD. Something else I no longer have to worry about. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Well a big weekend, but some good progress on the tank as well as other things around the house. The overflow box is finished and glued. It looks GREAT and fits perfectly. This is a big 'hastle' out of the way, and I can't wait to see it with water in there. It looks so discreet its hard to pick it out from the back glass. Here is a picture of the finalised closed loop pump (number 2) and the 40mm tap for the return plumbing. The closed loops should work out great as they are so unobtrusive and up out of the way. I have used a dremal to shorten all the tank valves as short as is practical. This helps get the pumps up as high and out of the way as possible. Another photo showing how little space the closed loops consume. I am very happy with the way in which this has worked out. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kermit Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Looking awsome dude, you've inspired me to hurry up my next investment. can't wait to see it all going and stocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 I love the closed loops bro, way cool. nice clean setup. unfortunately i designed is my setup with SCWD's for the closed loops so cant do a 1-to-1 like you have done (and in honesty, i wish i had coz its so much easier and tidier). how about a zoomed out photo of the entire tank with cupboard doors open?! something interesting to do with pipe sizes: - even though the iwaki outlet for the Iwaki 55RLT says 3/4" (20mm) if you actually measure the inside diameter of the outlet its more like 16mm. on the other hand, if you measure the inside diameter of 25mm pressure piping, it's actually 28mm! also, the problem with the various fitting (such as ball valves is they are called "25mm" but dont actually have a 25mm internal diameter, they are less) food for thought. chipipemera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Well return plumbing (from the sump back to the tank) ramains as one of the last tasks to be done before I can begin to fill the tank. Pie size will be either 32mm or 40mm, and I am leaning towards 32mm. This needs to feed 2x Sea Swirls with 20mm connections. So pipe reduction is going to be nessessary. Here are my 2 ideas: The left hand shows the piping comming up from one end, and one long pipe feeding both sea swirls. The second shows the more traditional method of useinga T (or Y) to split the current at about the center. The center method should provide more consistant flow through the sea swirls but is be less desirable method because of plumbing reasons (tider in the first option). Your thoughts please. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 if i wanted balanced flow I would probably go the t method.... but then again, given your closed loop etc etc, return flow as a toal % not that critical........ Prob be easier to service the LHS option if needed. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 If I have taps (which I will) in both sections before the SeaSwirl I should be able to use that to ballance the flow (I think). There should be over 11,000 litres an hr of flow from the Closed Loops. An additional 36,000 litres an he of flow from the 3x Streams. So the 6,000 litre an hr (estimated) from the return plumbing will help, but ballance isn't that important, butif I am paying for the pump to run, I want to get the mostout of it as I can. Perhapps Chimera can run the numbers through his new found Spreadsheet and give me the low down? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 I agree with RnB, T or Y it. Not as pretty but one pipe going up the middle aint much in a tank that size! What is the static head? (total distance straight up) Whats the pipe length? (total distance of pipe) How many 45 degree bends and how many 90 degree bends? How many ball valves, gate valves, couplings/unions and check valves? I'll tell you the best pipe size (according to the spreadsheet) for 6,000 litres per hour (1,500 gallons per hour) You could actually get away with up to 6,500 litres per hour with 2 x 3/4" sea-swirls (1,700 gallons per hour or 850 gph each) I'll choose the Iwaki 100RLT and see how that fits in the equation. As an example, I took a guesstimate... 12 feet pipe length 8 feet static head 2 x ball valves 4 x 90 degree bends 2 x 45 degree bends 2 x couplings/unions Using an Iwaki 100RLT and 1.25" pipe diameter (32mm), provides 1698 gph (6,500 litres per hour) Not bad for a first guess. I increased the pipe size to 1.5" (40mm) and output increases to 1739gph. Not alot more however, the important factor here though is velocity (according to that web site) They say to maintain velocity 4 feet per second or less. The biggest key to designing the best plumbing setup is to match up the right size plumbing to the amount of flow you want to run through it. When designing your plumbing setup we personally would not recommend exceeding a velocity over 4 ft/sec. In my experience, you will experience more problems from the higher velocities than by providing the same flow and using additional outlets into the tank and larger sized plumbing acting as feeders to the outlet to keep the velocities under 4 ft/sec Using 1.25" pipe, this is 6.06ft/sec. Using 1.5" pipe, this is 4.56ft/sec. So if the above figures were correct, then 40mm piping (or more) would be better suited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Chimera - You may have redeemed yourself Thanks for that. Looks like the polls are in, 40mm from the IWAKI100 (which I still don't own) straight up to the sea swirls via a T junction (I don't think a Y is really going to make any difference). Not as pretty but one pipe going up the middle aint much in a tank that size! I am not sure what you mean? This pipe is on the outside behind the tank, so you won't see it either way. Pieman on a mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Chimera - You may have redeemed yourself Thanks for that. I sensed a feeling of "pie-pissed-offness" towards me due to my previous comments. As stated in my last post, my apologies for jumping to conclusions Not as pretty but one pipe going up the middle aint much in a tank that size! I am not sure what you mean? This pipe is on the outside behind the tank, so you won't see it either way. Oh yeah, you dont access your tank from the back I was thinking you accessed it from the back and meant if you did, a pipe in the way up the middle is not too much of a problem. My bad. Its been very interesting reading since the start of discussion on pipe size. Im glad you brought it up and we all argued about it because I worked out that by increasing my pipe size from 3/4" to 1" pressure pipe (only 1/4") reduces the flow rate velocity (assuming I dont restrict it into the sea-swirl which Im currently doing) from an amazing 7.75 ft/sec down to 4.78ft/sec!!! Huge improvement on reliability of the piping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 I wounder if I should go 40mm from the pump to the T, then 32mm from the T to the Sea Swirl? The only issue I have now is that I only have a limited space behind the tank to convert from 40mm -> 20mm. I will have to get an elbow with a threaded end then a reducer to 20mm for the 20mm hansen fitting to attach to. If I can get that done this week, it means I may be close to getting water in it the following week!!! Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Called into the industral pump shop at the bottom of Ngauranga gorge yesterday, they have hansen fittings (might save you some travel time) and can also order in PVC 'Y' connectors (same stuff as your closed loop pipe work). I guess you already know this place is there, but just letting you know incase you have missed it. They can also order in Iwaki and ehiem pumps but I'm guessing it would still be cheaper to buy via the net. Regarding the Y verse T, it would be interesting to know the restriction difference, I'm guessing it would be about half. But if the friction of a T is not much to begin with then half of not much is still not much. Also I'm guessing that if you use taps to balance the flow this would negate any friction gains you made, surely a half closed tap is going to do really bad things to your friction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Suphew - Can you give me the details of that place, I might try and get out there this afternoon if they have the hansen fittings in stock. Chimera - Whats your spreadsheet say on T vs Y. I assume if I use a Y, then I will need to use 2x 45s as well to get the right angle? You right about the tap restricting flow. So I need to convert 40mm to 20mm female (for the 20mm hansen tap fittings), and 25mm to 40mm for the Iwaki pump. I wounder what price they can do the Iwaki for... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 I am happy to almost bet my first born, that three other men and their dogs will be involved with the supply chain of the iwaki, making it your inship cost from the US + 150% but they do add such amazing value... for an order in item :lol: they hold em on site... all those spares bah hahahahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Chimera thinks this would cost less than 1k landed to me from where he got his from. Thats a HUGE difference than 2k + GST.... Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 definately less than $1k, already enquired for you ages ago. cant remember exactly but I think around the $800 landed figure (depending on exchange rate at the time etc) Chimera - Whats your spreadsheet say on T vs Y. I assume if I use a Y, then I will need to use 2x 45s as well to get the right angle? I would imagine a Y would mean selecting 4 x 45's (water has to disperse across both joints) In reality, dont need to be too particular on this as changing from 2 x 45's to 4 x 45's only changed overall flow rate by 5 gph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 So the question is, is it worth the hastle going with the Y or should I just use a T and be done with it? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 use a T and be done with it. 9gph difference, bugger all... Using 4 x 90's (T) 29.07gpm 1744gph 4.58ft/sec Using 4 x 45's (Y) 29.22gpm 1753gph 4.60ft/sec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Good, cheaper too Will try and organise plumbing tommorow. 40mm or 32mm? Looks like 40mm is going to win. Last chance to change my mind. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Assuming iwaki 100rlt, 12 feet pipe and 8 feet static head + 4 x 90s and a couple of ball and union valves... 32mm = 28.42gpm 1705gph 6.09ft/sec 40mm = 29.07gpm 1744gph 4.58ft/sec Conclusion: go for 40mm, slower velocity, faster flow rate, more reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Off to Mico tommorow to get my 'odd bits' then to Bunnings to get some pipe. Maybee get it all drilled in this weekend. 2 holes in the floor, move the tank about 1cm further back and I am done. Ohhh and reef racks and spray bars need to be finished. Chimera - learn anything from your spray bars? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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