Simian Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Im a sparky and an electrical engineer and while I usually work in the field of heavy industry my new hobby has got me thinking. I have been doing some research into the new(ish) ultra bright led technology and the results may be very interesting to those of you with marine or cold water tanks. Led Moonlighting is nothing new so lets not thrash that out again please. But what is interesting is that high powered led's are coming down in price dramatically and are finding them selves in the mainstream lighting market. It would appear that NASA have been using LED technology for plant growth in space and with very good results, Aquatic LED grow bars are even commercially available now (still a bit pricey for me tho at $400 a shot). the advantage of using Leds over Fluoros or metal halides is that they dont produce very much heat, are energy efficient, produce no UV (which is not good for plants at close range), dimmable and by using the right mix of leds specific wavelengths of light can be targeted and tuned to give exactly the effect you want. Heres what I need to know from you serious addicts, what are you paying now in initial costs, power usage (just give me wattage and type of lamps you use and hrs per day) and relamping costs for your current set ups? It is very possible to produce very dramatic lighting effects such as a full day/night cycle complete with dawn and dusk lighting with gradual change to make your pets feel right at home. Is that something people would be interested in and what would be an acceptable cost for such a thing? I will probably need some help from those who are that way inclined to pin down the required wavelengths so I can match them up with the data sheets. Interesting? or a waste of time and money? let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 I grow a lot of plants and am a little different to most on here in that I use what worked for me 30 years ago rather than what is fashionable today. My set up is generally 2x 4ft flouros (one growlux and one cool white )with about 10% of the wattage in incandescent. This is what the Germans were pushing 30 years ago. I have used daylight tubes for a year but was not too happy and have reverted to the old way. My lights are on timers 17 hours/day and the incandescants are on dimmers and go all the time. This set up will grow most average plants but not plants needing intense light (which I don't grow submersed because they croak for most people). The cost effectiveness will relate to the set up cost but also the replacement cost. I replace the flouro tubes about yearly. How long would led last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianab Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 How long would led last? Thats LEDs big advantage - long life, as long as they aren't overdriven to get more than the specced light output. You could resonably expect 10 years + from a properly designed LED lamp. The only reason that we aren't all using them is the cost :roll: But I suggest thats going to come down in the near future, like most mass produced electronics. In 10 years time they will probably be cheap and commonly used, much like compact flouros have just become. The other issue is what the spectrum of the light output is. How suitable is it for plant growth? LEDs usually have weird light output curves. It may be fine.. I dont really know :-? Cheers Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerpeller Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 I have read alot about high powered LED set-ups being used in marine reef tanks overseas, as they can be placed closer to the water surface for better light penetration. A few people use DIY set-ups on nano-reefs and i've been thinking of giving 1 a go, as I have access to the LED drivers and LEDs. I think on a larger scale it could be quite expensive though. If the price can better (or at the most, match) a quality MH or T5HO set-up, I'm all for it. Currently, I run a 150w 14K DE MH set-up over a nano-reef tank for 8 hours a day. I haven't needed to re-lamp just yet, which is why I've been looking at LEDs. Interesting or a waste of money? I'm very interested. Keep us posted on your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 I also grow plants emersed in an unheated glassehouse in summer (not economic to heat over winter) and I bring many plants inside over winter and grow them under artificial light. Some plants do well and others don't like it at all. Blue light keeps plants compact and red makes them scrawny. Still experimenting here so can't help a lot. It could be a goer if the quality of light out put for a longer period would help offset the setup cost. I note that flower growers are still using metal halides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The life expectancy is very high for LEDs, I agree with Ian 5-10 years is not unreasonable. If you have a Metal halide lamp over a marine tank don't you have issues with excess heat? you get into needing chillers etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Even at 10 years it would still be twice the cost of replacement. What other advantages do they have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianab Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Even at 10 years it would still be twice the cost of replacement. And thats why they aren't popular... yet. They are effiecient, cool running, small and reliable... just EXPENSIVE (to get enough light grow aquarium plants anyway) AS a sidetrack.. the Windwand kinetic sculpture in New Plymouth has a LED lamp in it. To get the durablilty with the thing stuck on a 35m flexible pole. Imagine a football covered with ~800 LEDS. They wanted it to last for years as it a MAJOR job to take the pole down and replace the lamp. Cheers Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoshark Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 If I could get enough LED lighting at the right wavelength for my 4foot marine tank, in such a way that I would only need to run the one light, (and have less power usage than my current setup, and less heat), i'd be happy to pay around 2k. But, it would need to be the ultimate solution. (i'm on a tight budget), and then i'd need to save up for quite a while;... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 The other consideration would be the spread of light rather than a point source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerpeller Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 The life expectancy is very high for LEDs, I agree with Ian 5-10 years is not unreasonable. If you have a Metal halide lamp over a marine tank don't you have issues with excess heat? you get into needing chillers etc? Don't really need chillers if your running enough fans, or running different heaters on timers . Heat is an issue though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Smith Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 This'll never be economical, but it will be sexy. Sell it on the high tech sexy factor. It's cool. You can even sell it as "natural" (normal sun cycles, dawn-dusk, movement across the sky, cloudy days, the moon, yadda yadda yadda) I don't know much about LEDs, but I know that the ultra-bright white LEDs cost about US$1.00 to OEMs. That's the cheapest they get to anyone anywhere. These are designed for pulse applications (up to 1.5A for a few 10's of milliseconds) so they may be over-engineered for low current constant-on applications like this. The packaging and heat management is where most of the technical value lies in LEDs. Get that wrong and your LED is cactus quickly. I use 12V tungsten halide because I have no headspace (50mm clearance) and I built it all myself for about $20. I recommend against 12V CCFL, the bulbs I've managed to find are unreliable (and expensive, they're about $20 vs $2 for tungsten halide) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianab Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 The other consideration would be the spread of light rather than a point source. Not a big problem, because whatever LEDs you use you are going to use a LOT of them. Maybe 50 -200, so they can just be mounted on a long strip, or whatever shape you want really, and cover the whole tank evenly. It's the number of LEDS thats the issue, each one only costs a few dollars, but when you have to use 100 of them to make a decent lamp it gets pricey. Cheers Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Not everyone is into plants. I have lights for simple illumination. Howevr I have coldwater fish and the heat from the lights adds to everything else and puts greater stress on the cooling system (ie me). Would LED lights not aimed at plant-growth be cheaper? I think it is a great idea :)And the dawn/duck thing rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianab Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Would LED lights not aimed at plant-growth be cheaper? Sure would, if you dont need the plant growing intensity you can have a lot less LEDs in your array - so it's much cheaper. Of course a few compact flouro lamps would still be cheaper and dont put out huge amounts of heat. LEDS are easier to dim of course, you can take them from moonlight to full brightness with a very simple circuit. Cheers Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
je_suis_ketan Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 It's the number of LEDS thats the issue, each one only costs a few dollars, but when you have to use 100 of them to make a decent lamp it gets pricey. If you bought that many of them couldn't you get them a lot cheaper? Or are you taking bulk buying into consideration? What about using fewer LED's that are a higher wattage would that be cheaper? I remember looking at plans to build lights for night mountain biking and using a high W LED(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsonMassif Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 So say you setup a lighting panel using 100 high watt LED's, $2-3 each. Wouldn't the benefits outway the initial setup cost? Longlife, low energy requirements, low heat emission, aesthetically pleasing slim design? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 There are luxeon leds and similar that are up to 5 watts each. But, I don't think you'll get them for less than about $20 US each. Which, isn't actually too bad. Luxeon also sells LED fluoro drop in replacement tubes. $150 US and it looks like they're a little brighter, draw a little less power. Not really significant. http://www.luxeonstar.com/item.php?id=5528&link_str=1429&partno=EVE25T8-48-S5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
je_suis_ketan Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 How many W's are required for plants? Or is it light frequency rather than Wattage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 It's both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMAZONIAN Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hi All. The LUXEON driver and LED units are available from "JAYCAR" Electronics. They are available in 1 Watt; 3 Watt; and 5 Watt. Colours are 1 Watt; 25 Lumens per 1 Watt $21.00 approx. each RED ORANGE GREEN WHITE ROYAL BLUE WHITE...Side Emitting. 3 Watt; 80 Lumens per 3 Watts $36.00 approx. each WHITE RED AMBER GREEN BLUE WHITE...Side Emitting 5 Watt; 120 Lumens per 5 watts $83.00 approx. each. WHITE. The driver for these lamps is between $23.00 and $$36.00 approx. each. These are not the only units available; there are a lot more that I can source as an "ELECTRONICS ENGINEER" Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
je_suis_ketan Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I vaguely remember looking at 5W LED's for the night lights for MTB. They must be pretty bright if a 5W LED will provide enough light to bike along a track in darkness How spread out would they have to be to get an even dispersion of light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 ok, so if a normal 4 ft fluoro tube is about 3000 lumen, if we want to replicate 4 of those(12,000 lumen) and 160 watts. We'd need one hundred 5 watt luxeons at 500 watts and $8300 for just the leds. So, either it's not such a great deal or it doesn't work that easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
je_suis_ketan Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I don't think that 5W LED = 5W fluro tube. That's why LED's would be more efficient. More light from less wattage. Less energy wasted on heat, more energy going into creating light. I'd have to read up about Lumen though. I've never heard of that term before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I don't think that 5W LED = 5W fluro tube. That's why LED's would be more efficient. More light from less wattage. Less energy wasted on heat, more energy going into creating light. I'd have to read up about Lumen though. I've never heard of that term before. I didn't say 5w led= 5w fluoro. I said lumens=lumens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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