Peat Substrate?

[Stella]

I am getting some mudfish (native) soon for a massey breeding project and am contemplating what to use to make their aquarium as natural as possible to hopefully eventually get them in the mood...

In the wild they live in wetlands. Lots of muck and sticks and plants and sludge...

I had heard of using peat as a substrate, which would make the water nice and tannined, lower the pH and give them something to burrow into (apparently the ones that have already been caught keep burrowing into whatever they are using as substrate).

I know absolutely nothing about peat as a substrate... any help would be greatly appreciated.

What sort?

How do you use it?

How do you then maintain the tank? Gravel vacuums would be out..

Will it just make a horrid sludge and I will never see the fish again?

Thanks

[Caryl]

You get natural peat that has no fertilisers or mould inhibitors added.

[Navarre]

You could try the Hauraki Black Gold Peat. I think that has no nasties added.

You could also try placing a clay layer or a gravel layer that is quite think on top.

This would replicate the stream bed, give them something to burrow into and still let you gravel vax the tank. Also maybe some big knarley Rata/Beech roots along an edge might give them shelter etc so they dont feel so "on display".

HTH

Navarre

[Caper]

Had to google mudfish to see what they looked like :-? ...it says they are a "threatened" species...so are you able to keep them in a tank then???

Caper

[tHEcONCH]

I am getting some mudfish (native) soon for a massey breeding project and am contemplating what to use to make their aquarium as natural as possible to hopefully eventually get them in the mood...

In the wild they live in wetlands. Lots of muck and sticks and plants and sludge...

I had heard of using peat as a substrate, which would make the water nice and tannined, lower the pH and give them something to burrow into (apparently the ones that have already been caught keep burrowing into whatever they are using as substrate).

I know absolutely nothing about peat as a substrate... any help would be greatly appreciated.

What sort?

How do you use it?

How do you then maintain the tank? Gravel vacuums would be out..

Will it just make a horrid sludge and I will never see the fish again?

Thanks

EErrr... I don't mean to be rude, but perhaps you shouldn't be keeping these fish until you know what their requirements are, and how you are going to meet those requirements - they simply will not breed if they are stressed.

I personally think that peat might not be to their liking, and given the variance in peat's effect on water chemistry you might end up with a few problems if you put it into the tank itself. I'd recommend you start with an inert substate with a particle size as close to what they naturally live in as possible (don't use silica sand - its sharp and will irritate their gills) - perhaps you could collect some mud and heat sterilise it, and then adjust your water chemistry to match the natural environment they come from.

Given that mud is very good at trapping detritus, you are going to have to have massive filtration available to control the waste products that will leach into the water from it - you might also find that the sticks etc aren't that important in themselves and that the fish simply use the shade provided to control their temperature.

If you need tanins in the water, you might be best to introduce peat into the filter and monitor the water chemistry as you go, removing it if the ph begins to crash.

Good luck, and if the fish begin to look sick release them back into the wild before there are fewer left than when you started.

[purplecatfish]

Hi Stella, here's my 2 cents worth of opinion.

Firstly to those who are politely questioning this project. I'm glad it's Stella that Massey Uni has asked to be involved, as from what I've read in other threads she probably knows more than nearly anyone else on this forum when it comes to native fish; or if there is someone who knows more they don't provide as much helpful advice. That she has been given this chance to help add to the knowledge of this threatened fish means that I'm not the only one with confidence in her ability to breed them. Who knows in years to come we might all be breeding them.

From what I've read peat is usually used in a filter bag to alter the water chemistry, or its used under a layer of gravel. I'm not sure that it would work as a plain substrate as there is usually a lot of light leafy particles that are likely to float especially since it is usually dried before selling to the horticulture industry. The amount you'd use for a substrate could also make the water too acidic. Knowing what it's like to work with it in the garden on a wet UK winter's day you might also run the risk of anerobic areas forming. I suspect that you could get a get a sludgely mess. Trying a practical experiment may be the only way you'll find out.

Perhaps some mud from there natural habitat would be a good idea as tHEcONCH suggests but I wouldn't sterilise it as it is likely to have a lot of microscopic beneficial critters. The trick would be in collecting it without mixing it up to much.

I'm curious to know what kind of flow you'll have in the tank. And please let us know how it all goes, with photos too.

The views in this post are opinion only and should not be regarded as coming from somone who actually knows anything

[Caryl]

Peat is usually used in a bag to lower pH, not as a substrate. Not sure how you would keep it down and still enable the fish to dig. Perhaps some 'natural mud' from a stream would be helpful?

[Caper]

who are politely questioning this project

I'm not sure if this includes me, but just in case...sorry I didn't mean to offend, I didn't know what Massey was...and I was only asking because of what I read about them being threatened and I know that you folks have strict guidelines when it comes to keeping certain fishies, believe me I certainly didn't intend to "question" a project but only ask A question

Caper

[Stella]

No offense taken and thanks for the praise, Purplecatfish

Yes mudfish are threatened, technically in a state of gradual decline. They live in wetlands, of which 90% or more have been 'drained' for farmland. What remains are usually small isolated and highly degraded pockets.

This breeding project (of which I know fairly little, they said "do you want to breed us some mudfish?" and I said "hellyes!!!") is for a masters student at massey uni to relocate some captive-bred mudfish to Mana Island. The reason for doing captive-bred, I think, is so it is not depleting wild juvenile stock. The adults will be returned to whence they came.

My background is not very long with these fish, but long enough to become completely obsessed about them, and become frustrated that there was no information out there about keeping them in aquariums. Heaps of information is the real basic intro to species stuff (this is a redfin, this is an inanga...) or scientific reports, but no middle ground and nothing on how to keep them in captivity. So being me, I started writing the book...!

This got me in touch with the massey people, who have read over a draft a while back, and discussed the ethical issues amongst themselves and approve. I am keeping it very focussed on the conservation, ethical and legal side of things, and specifically only mentioning fish that are fairly commonly available and otherwise suitable - ie NOT mudfish Personally I would not 'own' mudfish had this project not come up, they are too threatened.

SO back on topic, I feel completely comfortable that I can look after them perfectly well, the reason for this topic was to learn about peat substrate and what plusses and minuses there were etc. Mudfish actually come from peaty areas, and they burrow into it to aestivate (like hibernate, but over summer) when the water completely dries up. It is just the use of it in a tank that throws me.

I found out today that apparently some killifish people use it as a substrate, new search term

[evilknieval69]

I think you are the perfect person for this project, and im sure you will do a great job.

Yes us Killie keepers do use Peat, sometimes as a substrate, but more often it is just used in a small margarine container or similiar, for the fish to lay their eggs in, then it is 'collected' and dryed out for 3 months, then wet again and the fish will hatch. this is what happens in the wild.... the fish lay in the peaty substrate, the lake/swamp drys out and the adult fish die, after the dry season of around 3 months the rain comes and turns the place back into a swamp/lake and the fish hatch and the cycle happens all over again. these are known as Annual killies and have a much shorter life span than non-annual killifish.

Im not 100% sure but i think that Peat has natural healing remedies aswell, which is an added bonus. It is very soft once it is underwater, so will be easy to burrow into and will not hurt your fish. It will make the water cloudy if it is dug up heaps, but i guess that wont matter too much for you. It will drop the pH significantly, and will stain the water a nice tea colour.

I think it would be the perfect substrate for your purpose, and i hope all goes well!

[Stella]

Peat is usually used in a bag to lower pH, not as a substrate. Not sure how you would keep it down and still enable the fish to dig. Perhaps some 'natural mud' from a stream would be helpful?

Apparently you need to soak it for several weeks. You scoop off the unsinking stuff on top and keep changing the water to get out the initial leechates.

Also apparently it is fairly inert. Sphagnum contains a natural antiseptic, which is why the peat forms, it doesn't fully decompose when it is submerged. All sounds fairly positive. Hopefully water changes would stop it from dropping the pH too low. Since mudfish live part of the time in fairly stagnant water (drying wetlands over summer) I am imagine they would be more hardy to these things.

Am feeling a bit more positive about using it, just found out the above stuff today talking to Andrew Broome, who is one up on me and has actually *seen* a mudfish!

[Stella]

As an update, I now have the tank for it from massey, positioned and filled it up last ngiht and added the 20lt bucket of wet peat.

Note: Do not pour the last few litres from the bucket, your wall will get covered in black splashes.... D'oh!

It separated out fairly readily, so this morning I scooped off the floating stuff and changed most of the water which was a pretty serious shade of black. I think about half sunk, which is what was expected. I know further soaking and boiling will make more sink, so I will keep the floaties for future use.

I think I could do another waterchange now. It is less black but still not a hope of seeing a neon tetra pressed up against the glass...!

Am going out on sunday with the girl who instigated this project to check out a wetland. Should be interesting.

[alanmin4304]

In a previous life (us old fellas have them) I used to breed some varieties of bottom spawning killies in a bare tank with a layer of peat over the bottom. As you suggest boiling helps to remove a lot of the solubles and to keep the peat on the bottom. I suspect no one had heard of margarine then. In my new life I use rainwater with peat boiled in it to breed other types of killies but the peat is (the bloody expensive but very good quality) German imported stuff in pallets and made for use in aquariums. After I have boiled it a few times I chuck it into my 20 litre container of rainwater and let it continue to soak. It goes to the bottom and seperates out well. As an aside when it gets real old I use it as a media to grow grindal worms after I have rolled it with the rolling pin and recovered from the inevitable domestic. An easier way would probably be to put it through a coffee grinder first. I guess expense relates to how much you need. Good luck with your project and stuff the imported fish. If you want a bit to try I think they have smaller bags for about 7-8 bucks and I could see whats available.

[Stella]

Hi Alan,

My peat is coming along nicely. After six 80% waterchanges in two days I can now see a nice settled thick layer on the bottom - just what I wanted I think after another week of daily waterchanges it should be just right.

I am SO pleased I found a total hands-off approach to waterchanges and am learning to live with a hose stretched through the house and a layer of peat dust on the bottom of the shower....

My next question is about filtration. With such a mobile substrate, and a fish that is rarely found in flowing water, I have no idea what to do about this. I am actually beginning to wonder if I can get away with hot having filtration (ducks!) because I have to do weekly waterchanges on my other tanks anyway and I am figuring it will be pretty easy to do.

(I can imagine the 'domestic' from putting peat in the coffee grinder would be a hundred times worse, particularly if it was not thoroughly washed after - bleaurgh!!)

***

Edited to add photos of tank: http://picasaweb.google.com/nznativefish/Mudfish

[alanmin4304]

I suggested the German stuff because what I am left with settles well and is very fine. On second thoughts it is probably best where it is (growing grindal worms) as it could be light and easily stirred up in your situation

[purplecatfish]

NZ Herald, Section A, page 12, Wed 26th Sept.

An article on the Kowaro or Canterbury Mudfish which is the second most threatened native fish. (Anyone able to answer the most threatened species?)

Are we all going to celebrate Mudfish Day next month :bounce: and make it a national celebration :bounce: rather than just the town of Oxford? Does anyone know the actual date?

[Salty]

Glad to here they are reducing the quota for most commercial fishing all round...

maybe they could take a break from the ole whitebait season most of the galaxidae family seem to be threatened according to this site the mudfish aren't protected thats interesting.

http://www.nzfreshwater.org/index_main.html

to hazard a guess to your question the dwarf inanga?

[Stella]

Just did a google and found the article: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/sto ... d=10465877

I love Dr O'Brien's comment that "It can survive when a lot of other fish would go belly-up".

Ironically the mudfish DOES go belly-up when it is out of water. They lie on their backs as they can absorb more oxygen through their stomachs and it is mroe direct to their vital organs. (I so want to lower the water level when I get my mudfish and see them lying on their backs!

(mudfish live in wetlands which often dry over summer and have adapted to survive out of water when necessary. They can survive for 2-4 months out of water in damp hollows under trees etc depending on the age and condition of the fish and surrounding area)

I saw my first mudfish on Sunday! Fairly plain fish, looked just like the photos, unsurprisingly... still very exciting! :bounce:

I have no idea who would be the rarest native fish.... I would hazard a guess at the shortjawed kokopu or other galaxias species with limited ranges..... I want to find out now!