Goldie Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 For this reason I use UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supplies) on all my tanks with a minimum of 12 hours standby time. It makes sure none of my filters die. Would you tell me more about the UPS Warren and how does one get it?? Do you use batteries or a generator?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 UPSs come in a variety of sizes goldie (we sell them too so can get you a good deal ). They are just battery packs which will keep the filters going until the power comes back on. They have a little built-in generator that runs the batteries and automatically starts when the power goes off. We have our computers running off one. A small UPS (around $135 RRP plus freight) would run a large canister filter for around 4 - 5 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 They are pretty expensive. It cost me about $1000 for my setup, but because I work with this type of equipment that's a cheap price. My system can backup just about my whole house for 24+ hours. I currently have the UPS on my tanks and computers. To properly backup just a filter would cost about $150-250 as Caryl says. If you want a longer backup time you need a better type of UPS starting at about $450. If you want to add more batteries to go up to 12+ hours, add about another $300. The way I look at it is, it will cost over twice the cost of the UPS to replace all my fish at retail prices. I see the one-off cost of a UPS as insurance against power outages. I don't know if others have noticed our power supply isn't as good as it used to be. Most of the lines are very old and are not maintained very well. Normally it takes a fault before equipment is replaced. It all comes down to the greedy power companies maximising profits at our expense, - ie, loss of service due to a fault rather than regular maintenance. It also means I never have to worry about my filters stopping. I have a long holdup time only because I travel a lot. It allows me to organise someone to get the generator going if I'm away (my Server sends me a message when the power has been off for more than 30 minutes). It is pretty rare to have an outage longer than 4 hours. I had a case when I was flatting in a block of flats where the Power Company disconnected my power while I was away. They had intended to disconnect the flat next to me as they hadn't paid, but did me by mistake. I was away for 2 days, so I don't normally get anyone to look after my fish for this time. When I got home the lights wouldn't go, but the lights were on in the tanks and the filters were still running thanks to the UPS. When I contacted the power company they told me there had been a mistake and they would fix it straight away. About an hour later the same sparky turned up to reconnect me. He said he'd disconnected the power the morning before. At the time I had 3 days backup supply. It was this event that made me setup an AutoDial system to let me know when the power was off. Had it not been for the UPS I would have had very dead filters and maybe a few dead fish instead of no problem at all. If you don't travel much or if there is someone round most of the time you can get away with a pretty standard UPS. If you travel a lot and no one will be home a longer time is advised. In the last 10 years, I've had 5 major power outages lasting 2 hours or more, 3 of them being 5 hours, 9 hours and 36 hours. That’s at least 3 times I would have had to re-cycle filters. If the power goes off for 3 hours+ while you are out and comes back on before you get home, there is some risk that your filter will poison the tank when the power comes back on. I don't want to recommend a UPS to everyone as they are expensive and in most cases unnecessary. It's up to you to judge for yourself what risk you have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman98 Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 two things warren 1 how many fish do you have? 2 can you get conpensation from the power companys if your fish die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 thanks Caryl, Warren It sounds like I should get three - one for each tank or would one serve all three tanks. I too have noticed that the power cuts are more frequent, especially in the winter. I got a shock when I quickly toted up the replacement value of my fish not to mention plants and the time it would take to do so. Good questions andy...............I think the answer would be NO. You would probably have to sue them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Goldie you would get one big enough to run all 3 (plus the computer). Compensation is not an option in power cuts. If someone crashes into a power pole which then has to be replaced, why should the power company be liable for the power outage? It is not always the fault of the company when there is a cut. Large outages due to weather come under "Acts of God" and you may be able to claim depending on your insurance policy. You will also have to pay the first $250 - $1,000 depending on your cover - use it to buy a UPS instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 The only time you can get compensation is if the power company stuffs up. Turning my power off by accident qualifies for compensation. Accidentally dropping the 11kV onto the 400V circuit and blowing all 230V outlets and appliances to bits in your house also qualifies. Power cuts do not... I have hundreds of fish and plants and about 40 Discus + exotics like Borneo Tigers etc. Very expensive to replace... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.L Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 40 Discus Heh, around $4,000 just there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I wonder...Is an average UPS's batter just a standard 12V? Could you get a cheap UPS for all the electronics and then wire up a handful of extra UPS batteries or something like car batteries if it's cheaper, to increase its backup time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGilchrist Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 can run a simple ups with a battery charger, standard batteries and an inverter that can handle max output current. better to pay the extra and get deep cycle batteries, reason being ups tops up battery all the time, standard battery gets memory does not do so well, deep cycle will not get memory the same and so lasts longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGilchrist Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 also i have always worked in power system (power generation through to distribution) and take a small amount of offence regarding comments about poor maintenance, none about stuff ups though, they do happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Comments not aimed at power generation and distribution networks which are maintained well. Was talking about local networks at 11kV... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 can run a simple ups with a battery charger, standard batteries and an inverter that can handle max output current. better to pay the extra and get deep cycle batteries, reason being ups tops up battery all the time, standard battery gets memory does not do so well, deep cycle will not get memory the same and so lasts longer. Batt, inverter & charger costs more than a simple UPS. Standard wet batteries don't have a memory problem, just aren't designed for repetitive deep discharging. Deep cycle are. Standard lead-acid cells will typically only give 100-200 full discharge / charge cycles before their capacity drops significantly. They can be discharged and charged very quickly however. They are designed for short-term high current, - like starting your car. Deep cycle are designed for long discharge at low current. They can handle up to 1000 discharge / charge cycles. There are many factors effecting battery life other then charge discharge cycles. Battery life is highly situation specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 I use a 1200VA APS UPS. The only thing connected to it is one pump, a return pump. If I can get a larger 2400VA or 3000VA I will grab one. Mine was free. You just want to run the tank so it can survive. I know heat is not going to be a problem (beside a 300watt heater will drain a UPS fast). I run 900 watts of light so thats off too! So just run enough equipment to keep it alive. For me thats 1x 55watt pump on 24/7, everything else is not important for small periods of time. We had a short powercut on Saturday night, UPS kicked in and everything was fine. A huge relief. I don't bother for freshwater but if I did I would just power my air pump to make sure there was oxygen in the water. Everything else will be fine, even for a day or 2. I saw a post on here recently with someone saying that their canister filter will die within 4 hrs. Based on recent experance 30hrs is fine. YMMV. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriber Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Overnight (~10hrs?) w/o power didn't appear to kill my canister either, depends on the fish loading on the tank I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 I've had tanks with a heavy bioload go 7-8 hours with no problem when they turned back on. Another with a reasonably heavy bioload went about 3 days when I accidentally unplugged it during a water change, started up with no problem. Then I had a filter on a tank with a low bioload go about 2-3 hours and killed off $200 worth of fish when it came back on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 After 2 weeks they certainly stink! - canister filters that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGilchrist Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Warren, you are right memory was not the right term, my point was simply that normal 12v car batteries are no good long term. As to cost, I bow to your knowledge, I am only used to dealing with larger systems such as will keep the control systems of a power station running (usually at 110v dc - there is no invertor only a charger). these systems would chew up and spit out a normal ups. 8) The local networks, ouch! kick me in the privates, I work as a faultman for networks south which is the management company for alpine energy(was south canterbury electric power board) and think we do all right by people in the area. alpine energy is 40% owned by a trust which returns dividends to the consumer, 47% owned by the timaru district council, dividends are used to run the town. alpine has for many years been shifting existing overhead cabling to underground systems which are more reliable and less obtrusive, this work continues making in theory timaru a better place to live. (cant comment on other powerboards though) sorry to bleat on and I know its off topic but i felt like it. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 No worries. I'm fairly sure the power board in my area isn't as good as your's. I know most of the faultmen in my area and it's from them I've got half the story... The other half has developed through experience. My ex also used to work at the local PB too as a sparky. We've made up some fairly decent sized DC systems for power stations, the biggest was at Huntly. Still quite small however. Our biggest UPS is 3MVA and we are currently quoting on a 50MVA frequency converter running at 600VAC (only 42kA). Sorry, off topic too but I felt like it also... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGilchrist Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 As I said, cant comment on other areas, but still think it is sad the powerboards still have an effective local monopoly and should be serving the local community. Blame the privatisation, Blame the government (like thats not a barnyard door to try and hit) 50mva cool, what town are you supplying :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 One of the small mining cities in Indonesia... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelay Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 I wonder...Is an average UPS's batter just a standard 12V? Could you get a cheap UPS for all the electronics and then wire up a handful of extra UPS batteries or something like car batteries if it's cheaper, to increase its backup time? I jus wanted to come back to this quickly. I wanted to say that you could probably do this and it would work, except for the battery cycling, would probably get a memory and not last 5Mins unless they we NI-MH Batteries. Also if you buy a UPS they usually come with a Warranty thing where the company will pay up to bout £100k if their UPS fails and Damages Your equipment. If you build one, then obviously you won't have this Warranty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Unless you're running the batteries down frequently it shouldn't be a problem. Normally they wouldn't be drained at all and the occasional outage even if it totally drains the batteries wouldn't be that big of a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 You can add extra batteries to increase the backup time but the UPS has to be designed for it. Most cheap UPS don't have an external battery connection as they are designed with undersized components. Just as all the components are getting really hot and about to blow up (well, a bit before that) the battery goes flat. If extra batteries are added the UPS will die. If you spend a bit extra on your UPS and get one rated for continuous battery operation you can add extra batts... I've got 400 Amp Hours on my UPS with a discharge rate of 10A max I'll get at least 40 hours. UPS cost $750 for a 2kVA Dual Conversion and I got the 24 x 100AH batteries from work for free (old stock being dumped). Most UPS batteries will handle at least 30 full discharge cycles before they need replacing. They aren't designed like wet cells which can handle 100's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 You forgot to mention that UPS batteries only last a certain period and need replacing (ok, so for a fish tank they will probably last 5 years+ but its worth noting) Also dont forget the surge/spike protection that most UPS' offer too..., which comes to my next point - if you cant afford a UPS you should at least get surge/spike protection for the rare occurances that might blow the power supply in your pumps/filters. Only around $40 odd bucks from Dick Smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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