Caryl Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Am considering getting a 2 metre long tank (by about 500 x 500) and wondering what the best and most economical way is of filtering it? It will house my Mbunas. Not keen on internal filters (and have gone off the external canisters too) and was wondering about a sump which I gather is a smaller tank below where the water is somehow pumped out of the main tank, through the smaller tank (filled with bio balls etc) and back into the main tank. Guess I need some sort of powerful pump for this . Anyone able to recommend a particular pump? I gather you drill holes for the pipes through the glass rather than have them up and over the top edge but aren't sure where the holes are supposed to go. I could also keep the limestone rocks in one end of the sump instead of the main tank to keep the pH up (don't like white rocks). Do I have to have sand on the bottom at all? The fish are... Labidochromis caeruleus Copadichromis borleyi Stigmatochromis modestus Aulonocara jacobfreibergi Julidochromis marlieri (an honorary Malawian) I figured maintenance would be easier with a bare tank base and I could paint the underside a sand colour instead. Am thinking of using polystyrene to fashion caves rather than use real rocks. There are some good sites showing how to do this. No worries about falling rocks and dug out sand if I don't use any. Any suggestions? Bet this is the last time Grant asks me what I want for my birthday :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClaw Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Hello, I have previously kept a 1.8m freshwater tank, and used the sump method you referred to. For a tank of your intended size internal or external canister filters will be underpowered, thus you would need multiple filters of those types. The trickle filter just uses a smaller container housed below the main tank. Its size and placement is a matter entirely for your own discretion. Bear in mind that the greater the height / distance of this "sump" from the main tank, the more powerful a return pump you will require. Lets say the tank is approximately 800 litres. You would want to turnover this volume about 5 times every hour (much more for salt water). In that case you would require a pump that can do 4000 litres per hour at the head required. This is a rather imprecise guideline, but I believe it gives a good estimation. Pump wise, I used a Via-Aqua 4900, which pumps 4000 lph exactly. It is a cheap brand, and my decision was one governed by money. Having said that the pump rendered 2 years of trouble free service, and I was stoked considering its supposed cheap quality. If I had adequate money I would have used an Eheim pump. I believe the 1262 model or some such one can pump 4500 lph. This is a very strong and reliable pump. If you have a tank manufactured to your own specifications, then ask for a corner overflow to be included. This basically involves sealing off one back corner with a strip of glass that creates a box of sorts. The water cascades over this strip at the top and starts filling the box. A hole is located at the bottom of the back pane, this drains the water via a PVC pipe into the "sump" below. The return pump keeps this cycle in motion. Filtration involves passing the overflow through various media - you can use floss and sponges for mechanical filtration, bio balls for biological filtration, and carbon for chemical filtration. These I mention by way of example. You can include media that has worked for you previously, and play around with the order that the media is stacked. I purchased a trickle filter pre-made. It was essentially a medium sized glass tank with a glass box that could slot into one end. This glass box was equipped with strips of glass to lay across the middle of the box and create a drip-tray of sorts. The sump with the glass box looked like the letter "L" on its side. Sumps are excellent for hiding unsightly gear. You could put the limestone in the sump, along with any heaters, thermometers etc. I see no problem in having a bare tank that is painted beneath. The only issue I am aware of is that certain species of fish feel emotionally deprived by the absence of a substrate. Bob Fenner (marine fish legend)did a study on Lobsters and their preference for a sand substrate that supports this point. As you intend to introduce freshwater species, and include intricate polystyrene rockwork, this will probably not affect the livestock. If anything a bare tank would relieve you of the chore of gravel vacuuming, a task that never ceases to annoy me. Good luck with the tank anyway, it sounds like a great idea for a birthday treat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 You'll definitely want to get the tank drilled with a couple overflows for the sump. Probably a good idea to make sure the holes are high enough that the water level will stay above the bottom edge of the lid...Err...Well, not above the lid, that would overflow it. But high enough that the top of the water doesn't show. Probably need minimum of 2 holes about an inch in diameter, not sure on that though. I think I'd go with The Claw's suggestion of a VA 4900 is good. It might not be a bad idea to go with a pair of smaller pumps since there seems to be a HUGE jump in pump price going from 3000lph to 4000 might almost be cheaper, at least it was when I was looking at pond pumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interfecus Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 If you want to make the bottom look like sand then you could mix some sand with a clear-drying glue and paint the bottom (on the outside) of the tank with it. You could also paint the bottom with silicone then cover it with sand. You could then leave it for the glue to cure, add some water, and then siphon the excess sand off. This should leave a thin layer of sand stuck to the bottom. It would look better than painting the outside with sandy glue but you'd very slowly lose the sand and you would have to empty the tank every few years to repaint it. If you don't have an overflow built into the tank then it is possible to build one that hangs on the side. A deep box hangs on the outside of the tank with a siphon linking it with the tank. The siphon should go to near the bottom of the tank wth a sponge on the end and the other end of the siphon should come out at the bottom of the overflow box. Another tube goes from the side of the box at the desired maximum tank level that leads down to the sump. Water flows through the siphon to the box then out of the tube in the overfow box back to the sump. The only way for the siphon to break is if the water level in the tank goes below either end of the tube, which is why both ends must be low both in the tank and the overflow box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joze Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 I am going through the design process of something like that for my oscar tank, the plan is to have a 'bio filter' of sorts upstairs, small kidney pond in a frame fill with plants upstairs. Basically the flow back to the tank will be a surface skimmer and a pool pump pushing water into the pond, therefore theoretically removing the threat of overflowing and emptying the tank, I worked out that to do this buying a new poolpump and a new sand filter is actually cheaper than buying the sorely needed extra filter. If I add in a spa pool heater to the equation ( I have a spa bath heater which has a range of 20C -30C) I can also remove any heater worries. We can have a water garden in the lounge (cutsey) and a clean healthy tank in the downstairs lounge (which is currently strategically placed close enough to be vaccumed with the pool pump) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Different option, The shop I work at has a disply tank(angels,loaches....),this is connected differently to the others. how about having a small tank above the bigger 1. We have it in a cabinet braced onto the wall. We have a strong internal pump, & it just pumps the water up & over the smaller tank(2 foot). A swinging arm is at the top of the 2 footer with heaps of holes. pressure causes this to swing around like a helicopter blade;so all the filter material comes into play. Let gravity do the rest. Saves drilling a big tank, just need a hole in the middle of the base of the smaller 1. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 It's usually a lot more inconvenient doing it that way, which is basically just a top mounted sump. With a sump you can usually hide the sump in the stand somewhere so you can't see it. You could also have it plumbed through the wall into the room behind the tank if you put it in a spot so you can have the sump in a convenient closet. That way you could lift the sump up to the same height as the tank and not lose flow pumping uphill. You could also plumb it so the water level in the tank and sump are always the same. But...Not likely you'll be able to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 If you don't mind the filter on top of the tank, its a very easy solution that doesn't require any drilling. Instead you drill the filter since it sounds like you need to get one made anyway. You've seen my setup. My tanks is 1200L. I use a Grundfos FP4 pump (now called Oase 6000). Amazingly this is a 6000L / hour pump. I get 5000L / hour from it (measured) because of the 650mm head and the prefilter drag. My trickle filter uses Siporax and Effisubstrat as media (14L of Siporax and 15L of Effisubstrat). There is a section for a carbon bag (I use Purigen (Seachem) instead of carbon). The pump is in the tank. The water gets pumped from the tank into a prefilter for mechanical filtration down to 15 microns (spa pool pleated cartridge filter - 75sq feet). This leaves the water optically clear and free from particulate mater which would clog the Effisubstrat or Siporax. The water then enters the trickle filter and passes over the two previously mentioned media. It then gravity feeds back into the tank. You've seen the results, - make up your own mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Hmm, lots of ideas to think about thanks. Our main concern with sumps is accidental overflows if the pump fails or power goes off. We would have room above (with a little rearranging of book shelves) or below but not beside. Through the wall is not an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerminalAddict Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 use a sump big enough so that if the power fails, the sump can fill without overflowing I have 1000litres, pumping 4500 l/hr, using a 200litre sump with a precisely measured fill line. meaning I never EVER fill the sump above the fill line (which is about 3/4 full). that way if the power fails the sump will fill but not overflow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clothahump Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Hi Caryl. Our main concern with sumps is accidental overflows if the pump fails or power goes off. Drill the sump and have an overflow from it to an empty tank that will be large enough to take the excess. Make sure the outlet from the tank is positioned correctly as the other guys have pointed out, here is a couple of pics of how I set mine up. 1" hole being drilled, this is 3" from the top to stop overflowing. If you look at the top right hand side of this pic you will see a "T" piece which allows water to flow up through it, if it blocks the water rises until it goes in the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Thanks for all your replies. I am now having a good think as to the way I want to do it and will let you all know what I end up with Love the fish there clotha. Had to keep reminding myself I was supposed to be looking at the T bar and plumbing, not the fish :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 They are the new species he is working on... Corydoras Disculatus :) Good to see you back on the boards Clothahump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clothahump Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 They are the new species he is working on... Corydoras Disculatus :) Good to see you back on the boards Clothahump I wish I could breed them, they would be worth a mint. Good to be back Pegasus, I do like it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Caryl As you know I use a pre drilled tank, with sump for my marines. Ira has seen it, as have many others. If you have questions etc just yell out, I can take photos and send them through. Leaks are the biggest concern, but can aslo be easily avoided. I like the sump becase using gravity is great, as its 'free' source to power many different pieces of equipment. I am looking at a new freshwater tank for Jane & I. It will be a modest 5ft tank. It will almost definatly have a sump. My biggest concern is leaking and over flowing. With marines, its different. There are no Java fern leaves to block my weirs. And this is another problem, depending on the fish, the weirs will have to have very thin combs attached to them. This will restrict water flow considerably. Something else to consider with a sump is noise. They can be noisey, as the water system is not 'closed' noise escapes. Doesn't sound like a big deal but I know of several people who have torn down their tanks because of the noise (I think the really annoying noise was comming from their wifes but thats a different subject). Another thing to think about is that external filters take their water from the bottom of the tank, a weir takes it from the top. Waste sits at the bottom. Now this can be relicated by using a Syphon. As far as I am concerned using Syphons to circulate water from tank to sump is for suicide pilots only, I am not playing that game. Their are way around it, but I can point you to many disasters, far to may to make it a good move. So it seems to me that the weir is the biggest challence. If you keeping large fish then its not a problem, for smaller fish it will require some form of 'ghetto action' I suspect. Using a prefilter spounge over the weir combs for example. I would use gravity to drop onto a tricle filter. Siporax/bio ball/efi strat combo with a easy clean plate and space for bags of carbon and Rowa-Phos. Then into a sump containing 1 heater (I have never needed more than 1) and lots more bio/balls/noodles etc. If I was going to also use a canister filter they would all run in this chamber. Then some baffles to remove bubbles and trap any more gunge, then return it to the tank. I would probable return the water at the bottom of the tank, aimed at an angle along the back at the ground. Stiring up anything settling and forcing it into the water to get filtered (it has to be suspended to flow through the weir as we will take water from the surface not from bellow the surface). I would love to know what you decide to do. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joze Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 OK I have a design underway will do it tomorrow with visio and then post it here, spent most of the day online at work in the lulls looking at hydroponic mediums, some of the stuff looks really promising as a root medium. Got the design figured ..even found some reasonably priced pumps and some really cool general equipment all of us could use on the nzhydroponic supplies website...anyone care for a 2000w heater for 151? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 All sounds very interesting Joze. looking forward to seeing your plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joze Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 ok so far I have found fishy stuff REALLY CHEAP http://www.gurugardener.co.nz/products.htm http://www.professionalhydroponics.co.nz/Services.shtml http://www.hydroponics.co.nz/ http://www.agcon.co.nz/Products/Products_Main.htm http://www.agcon.co.nz/Products/Products_Main.htm http://www.eplants.co.nz/search.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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