lduncan

I think it's mainly bacteria. They need carbon too.

agreed.

Wow, i didn't realise how long that post was. :lol:

The conditions required for a sand bed to operate, are the same conditions which are responsible for killing animals which predominately come from the reef crest (mainly SPS). Also, a DSB can be a significant consumer of carbon in a tank, and in effect becomes just another animal in the tank. That's what motivated that statement. It's not complete crap at all. Nope, I don't care if you rubbish my ideas or other peoples research (just be prepared to back up you're position, I don't let people off lightly ), i'll draw the line at personal attacks though. I've got no argument with that. The issues isn't whether they work or not, it's how they work. People take the word "crash" too literally, it's not here today gone the next, it's a progression of eutrophication. Algae is the sign of this. And yes for some coral this does result in death. The nutrients absorbed into the rock is also absorbed into live coral skeletons, SPS in particular. Boring algaes can attack the coral from the inside out killing it. The can be seen as STN or RTN in corals. There was a quick count up on one thread. 200 different authors, well over 600 references, so that was a literal statement. It doesn't have to saturate to cause problems. That doesn't change the fact that the bed is accumulating phosphate. Difference being that peoples sand beds do "crash" and they end up having to use phosphate removers as a band aid to try and mitigate the effects, they have algae problems which do not occur in a cleaner system, and they have corals die from STN and RTN. I'm not saying it's wrong, just explaining how they actually work. It's up to the individual to decide. If you know how things work you're in a position to make a better decision. Layton

I've stated what sand beds do. The "state of his (Pies) rock" is consistent with what I have read from numerous researchers/scientists, with regard to sand beds. If you want to construe that as ridicule, that's you're interpretation. But in reality, it's just a normal deep sand bed at work. Layton

??? He wasn't responding to ridicule at all.

1.What system of sand bed/ non sand bed do you use? BB 2.Why did you choose this? Laziness. Couldn't be bothered cleaning the sand and putting it back into the tank, after having to move house. 3.a)Asthecticially which type do you prefer? SSB, but the bb look is growing on me. b)practically which do you prefer? BB 4.Have you ever experienced the "crash" if using a dsb? What happened? Yes. Hair algae growing on the rock in a remote DSB. 5.Are you happy with the current system you are using? Yes 6.What are the benefits/negatives you have found when using this system? Major positive - Pest flatworms can't survive, Negative - cooking rocks in tank is not the best. 7.Have you ever changed/considered changing your sand/no sand system? If so Why? Nope 8*.Labour or National ME

It's no theory. It's how they work. You may not prescribe to it, but hundreds of scientist and researchers say that it is how they work. Don't worry JB, i'm used to the "dumbass" type statements from the zeo stuff. I wonder what people will think when they hear the other part about sandbeds. Not only do they cycle phosphate, but the cycle metals too . And those metal eating bacteria I was talking about in the other topics, play a role in the phosphate cycling too. Interesting little creatures those metal eating bacteria. All I try to do is explain how things work. People can do what they want with the info - chose to ignore it, or apply it. Layton

Have a look in the link to the photos, I can see a lot of the fish he lists in different photos. They're just camera shy.

Maybe not. Some people just don't like "brown" corals, even if it is their natural colour. Opinions may be different if it was full of indo-pacific acros, rather than just A. cervicornis.

Depends what you're more interested in keeping, coral and fish, or sand crap and associated critters. I pick corals and fish. Here is another pic, and a link to images http://www.saltyzoo.com/other/jerel-tank/

I'd take that as a sign it's dirty . If there's heaps of them it means there is heaps of food for them... so they are creating heaps of waste. Layton

From the man himself: And apparently feeds several times a day. The reason he has no nutrients is because the skimmer (combined with water flow) removes it before it becomes a problem.

Here's a pic of his tank I found. Don't know that he has a site or not.

Bombers tank is pretty impressive. Different type of corals. Bombers are mainly Caribbean (restricted species) - golden brown acros, where as Steve's are indo-pacific - rainbow colours. Layton

Also, there is nothing surgically clean about BB tanks. They are still a lot dirtier than the natural environment most of the corals housed in them come from.

Maintenance is the difference. With properly positioned flow, BB tanks can be extremely low maintenance. For example, Bombers tank on RC, 300gal + only requires siphoning of 1/8th of a cup of detritus a month. No phosphate removers, not even a calcium reactor. Just water flow, skimmer, UV, and 2-3hr/day photoperiod. When you have sand, you really never know how dirty it is. I think you have to keep a tank BB for a while to truly appreciate the part rock and sand plays in cycling nutrients in a tank. But clearly it can be done. Steve Weast (www.oregonreef.com) uses this approach. Layton

Yip my tank is BB, not by intent, just by laziness really. I couldn't be bothered cleaning the sand and putting it back in after I had to move the tank. You should absolutely cook "dead" dry rock, and yes, the diatom bloom when starting up a tank I believe is due to the crap on and in the "dead" dry rock. The cooking process is a cycling process, but you are removing the crap, rather than just have it fall into a sand bed, and storing it. If you placed cooked rock into a new tank, you won't have those initial algae problems. If you do, then the rock wasn't cooked long enough, or properly. Layton

I wasn't talking about Fay. Layton

If it's in the sand bed, then more than likely it's in the rock too. I'f you going to take out the sand. Leave it out for a few weeks, blow down the rock, and see just how much crap comes out of the rocks. I think you will be surprised. Also, uncontrollably adding iron (using zeovit) has the potential to cause problems in terms of mobilising phosphate, as well as adding a nutrient which algae loves. Layton

Sounds like attack of the sand bed. Changes in oxygen levels (like moving a tank) remobilise all that phosphate which sand beds are so good at storing, and live rock is so good at sponging up. I thought about mentioning the rock cooking process during your move Fay, but I thought you had enough on your hands at the time. Layton

summers on they way! There's several inches of snow on the ground down here this morning, and it's still snowing. Layton

A DSB would be an efficient method for this sort of tank. Layton

try putting a 'U' at the bottom of the return pipe, so the water is entering the sump like a bubbling spring, rather than straight down. It can help to get rid of the bubbles faster, as they are not continually pushed down into the water. Layton

I would HIGHLY recommend cooking your rock. Details on what this is can be found here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... did=485572 http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... did=437342 That way you won't have to worry about using phosphate remover and things like that. It really is quite an amazing process, you will be surprised with the amount of phosphate laden crap which comes out of the rock. Even dry base rock is full of it. I would recommend this process to anyone starting a tank. The amount of rubbish that exists in "new" rocks is probably the reason why virtually everyone goes through a stage of algae when setting up a new tank. Over the last few months I have removed 5 or 6 litres of SOLID detritus, which has come from the rock cooking process in my tank. Plus hundreds of litres of skimmate. And I considered my rock to be clean before hand, no algae problems or anything like that. Do it, you wont regret it. Layton