lduncan

Try searching for info on iron in marine environments. This has been a significant research topic in the 1990's. Especially in the Caribbean, with the decline of the reefs there. If you answer the question, i'll continue explaining. Just to recap what we know: 1. Iron addition can result in loss of zooxanthellae from coral tissue. 2. Iron does not kill zooxanthellae. 3. The zeolite used in zeovit contains iron. 4. Loss of zooxanthellae can result in coral colours becoming more pronounced. 5. Iron bioavailability is independent of dissolved iron levels. 6. Iron acts as a fertiliser to phyto and bacteria. So with that in mind, what is a possible answer to the questions above? How does this relate to the observations of the initial stages of using zeovit? IE, corals colouring up BEFORE nitrate and phosphate are noticeably reduced. Occasional TN occurances. How does it relate to the other observations that using zeovit (over time) lowers nitrate and phosphate? Layton

What are the answers these questions wasp? Why do corals show signs of colouring up despite indicators that the tank is still high nutrients? Why is tissue loss, which sometimes occurs, due to a fast reduction in nutrients? When clearly the rate at which particular nutrients are dropped is much much slower that what occurs when you perform a water change. Any evidence for this being the case?

So now that you've had time to cool down, can you answer those two questions, and i'll continue stepping through how and why the iron theory came about? Layton

Like I said, humour me. I don't recall you answering those questions.

What are the answers these questions wasp? Why do corals show signs of colouring up despite indicators that the tank is still high nutrients? Why is tissue loss, which sometimes occurs, due to a fast reduction in nutrients? When clearly the rate at which particular nutrients are dropped is much much slower that what occurs when you perform a water change. Any evidence for this being the case? Layton

And the answers are?

Now there's a novel idea. Actually researching information on a topic before arguing about it. Layton

well actually... a lot of plastics do.

Clearly you do. So if anything, just humour me.

Did you not read my response to that? Go back and read it. If you think any of this is crap, tell me which part in particular and why? Layton

How does your answer to those questions change based on a theory I have? I'm stepping you through how the theory comes about, and why. So, if you answer those questions, you might get a better picture of where i'm coming from. Layton

So you finally see the flaw in YOUR conclusion that brown = bad, is that some corals are just brown to begin with. I just wanted to know how you explain those observations? Can you?

Not having to hit the pump for it to start... priceless! :lol: Layton

I can see it now. Pies modelling tunze equipment :

looks like at least three more years of the crap too.

true, i'd like another couple of streams, but don't have the spare cash at the moment.

As they say, there's no substitute for quality.

Bingo! Determining a maximum leach factor would be difficult considering the process can be abrasive, disassociative and bacteria based. So the leaching is going to be dependent on a wide variety of variables, many of which you don't have control over. Depends what you are actually measuring. Habbibs testing method essentially measured chemical disassociation. The Serbella test measured the iron lost from the zeolite rocks themselves. The iron does not have to be directly dissolved in the water to be bioavailable. It won't necessarily indicate anything. Think of it this way. Bacteria grab ammonia so fast in a tank, that you can't measure any significant ammonia in the water. Now a tank with 10 tangs producing ammonia has a much higher input of ammonia than a tank with a couple of chromis, yet measuring both tanks may show undetectable ammonia levels. You can't determine how much ammonia is being put into the system based on the water levels alone. Similar thing with iron, you have both phyto and bacteria grabbing it. So total bioavailable iron is not necessarily related to dissolved iron. Testing water won't help. You don't have the ability to measure how much iron is bioavailable, so the only feedback you have is when there is enough iron present to cause problems. Layton

Maybe I spend too much time on RC. You must have heard of the problems a lot of people where having with bleaching when they switched salt mixes? Maybe it was because the salt mix they were switching to had higher trace metal levels? So chuck some rocks of iron contaminated zeolite in your tank, how much control do you really have on how much or how quickly it is released? Layton

It's wasps logic don't you get it? Brown corals are bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the picture at all. I'm trying to get wasp to see why his "logical" conclusion, is actually not based in logic at all. So do you get it yet wasp? Layton

What is ambiguous about that? I wasn't hinting at anything. I've said unequivocally that according to Harland and Brown, iron CAN cause expulsion of zoox. They have shown that by experiment. What they don't fully understand is if/how the corals regulate them, or if/why the zoox themselves decide to leave. That doesn't change the fact that they measured a drop in zoox density with iron additions. You said iron kills zooxanthellae. I've never said that. So you are twisting it to be something it's not. Over dramatising. Layton

So have you spotted the flaw in you "logical" conclusion yet? What is it? And can you answer these questions wasp? Why do corals show signs of colouring up despite indicators that the tank is still high nutrients? Why is tissue loss, which sometimes occurs, due to a fast reduction in nutrients? When clearly the rate at which particular nutrients are dropped is much much slower that what occurs when you perform a water change. Any evidence for this being the case? Layton

Hold your horses wasp. My answers are always in plain English. It is one component, yes. The zeolite used, clearly has significant iron contamination in it. One way or another it will find it's way into the system, whether through chemical disassociation, abrasion, or bacteria processes. The point is iron is a fertiliser from the point of view of algae and bacteria. The reasons and triggers as to why zooxanthellae leave the tissue (or are pushed out) are not well understood (although there is a possible, unverified, model). Have you heard of people having massive coral bleaching when changing salt brands? Maybe trace metals (transition ones in general, not just iron necessarily) play a role in that? Layton