lduncan

But what you don't see is how much of that stock is still in holding tanks at their quarantine, how many dead fish their are in their tanks, and how many of their fish die after being purchased. The market is not huge. Redwoods send a lot of stuff up north, and compared to others do not bring in a lot of stuff. I only know of 3 importers down here. Who is the fourth? LFS just don't slap on any price they want. Bob's pricing is fair, Petworld's is higher, I suspect because their losses are higher. I agree that a lot of shops need to raise their standards. There is nowhere in Christchurch at the moment where you can buy a good skimmer, for any price. Why? Because the market is too small. The growth in the hobby is not tremendous, it is growing, but not at a tremendous rate. If the market was 2 to 3 times bigger, it would not be so much of an issue. What's the best way to grow the market quickly? Have lfs promote it. Word of mouth is good, but is limited to people you know. A retail shop is ideal for introducing people who would otherwise not know about the hobby. Layton

I question I have is how big are guppies naturally. I see a lot in the shops which look to be very small. Can a small strain be breed bigger? Thanks Layton

I know it was Nick that said that, but Steve seems to think prices are far too high. Have things changed since then Nick? What are you're real motives for importing. I suspect not to lower prices at all. But for the reasons you stated above, it would be an interesting and challenging extension of the hobby. I can understand that I myself would be interested, but really only to supply a personal tank. No doubt it would be far more expensive, but still a very different aspect. But it would be very small, and strictly personal, not compete with existing importers or to make money. I believe the market is too small to have fragmented imports. If the market was bigger the there would be no problem. I think some people envisage it being much bigger than it actually is. Mark, I think you are in a very different position from most of us. You have no LFS, and therefore have a very different perspective on things. I also agree with what you have said with regards to the fact that there are more issues here than just the price of fish... there is in general a complete lack of information about the hobby as it is today. But that's an entirely different thread. Layton

Yes I do believe it. If you can cut half the overheads off bringing fish in, it could potentially cut the retail prices in half. This would mean at retail we would be paying a lot less than the states. There is a limit to this however, freight is still a major component. There is no doubt that if prices drop, interest will increase. But how are prices going to drop? Not by importer competition. Steve doesn't think so. We may be the hobby presently. But we are not the future of the hobby in terms of purchasing stock. There is only so much you can fit into a tank. The hobby need new people. Shops won't go out of business, they will get out of the business, there is more money to be made from things other than marine fish and corals. Layton

It is rare that this occurs in a market. The fact is the the market for fish and corals is not big at all. An extra importer is not going to lower costs in the long run. Also, there are no options overseas for purchasing livestock, unless you have permit and quarantine facility. How Nick and Steve plan to sell their livestock (yet unknown) will determine whether or not LFS will continue to stock marine fish and inverts in the long run. If they sell direct, then I think that prices in LFS will rise due to lower volumes, and stock turnover will drop. If they sell to the shops, then prices will remain close to where they are now, defeating the whole purpose of the venture. Either way, I don't see how the hobby will benefit. I can see how individuals will, but does nothing to advance the hobby in NZ, and could be to it's detriment. I also agree with what Ira said above. Shops are important... all of them. Layton

I think with regards to marines, LFS are providing more of a service. Like I said, there are more profitable things they could be using the space for. How do you expect people to get into the hobby if it's not physically accessible? I see people walk into pet shops and come across the marine section, and although it might not be presented the best, they are still in awe of it. Granted it will be too expensive for some, but for others it is definitely achievable. Now, if that marine section no longer exists, the people who would otherwise get into the hobby after seeing the fish and coral in the shops, have got no chance. How is opening an exclusive business to current hobbyists going to get more people into the hobby? It can't without a retail presence. How is diluting the volume of imports going to reduce prices to those looking at getting into the hobby?... it won't, it will have the opposite effect. Chimera - you are looking at it from an existing hobbyist point of view, I am looking at what is best for the long term benefit, and sustainability of the hobby. How about these over simplified equations: low demand + current # of suppliers = current prices low demand + higher # of suppliers = higher prices more demand + current # of suppliers = lower prices more demand + higher # of suppliers = current prices Selfish is right. There has been a lot of work done in this country by a few people to even have this hobby available as an option here. People like, Bob at Redwoods, the late Eddie from Petworld have all been in the hobby for 30+ years bringing stuff in from the days when little was know about keeping many types of coral. More recently importers in Auckland have added many species of soft coral, which were once illegal imports. To give you lower priced coral and fish at the expense of the shops which provide public access to the hobby is selfish. IMO Layton

RnB - That's the problem. It's not sustainable. If people sell without a retail presence to attract new customers, the shops will have fewer and fewer customers, making it unsustainable for them to even have a marine section, so they are forced to close it. Then there are no new people coming into the hobby, and volumes drop, forcing prices higher.

But the shops won't discount prices. They don't have to compete, there are more lucrative things to sell than marine fish and coral. It would be cheaper and less risk for them to close the marine section altogether, than it would to sell below cost. That is the problem. I agree with what Pegasus said, and this is my issue. If however Nick and Steve are opening a retail shop in a prominent location, which random members of the public can wander in and see what the hobby has to offer, I would have no problem. ie setting up their own shop specialising in marine fish and inverts. It's increasing the profile of the hobby and has potential to draw new reefers. Chimera - sure the 2 dollar shop has overheads, but then look at the volume. There's a little bit more stock in the two dollar shop than you're average LFS marine section. Layton

But that's the thing. By bypassing shops, people new to the hobby,( and who don't frequent this board), don't have access to these "discount prices". Surely it's best to consolidate the importation into one or two facilities, and pass lower prices on through the shops? Everyone wins. Established reefers get lower prices through shops, the shops assist in promoting the hobby, and new potential reefers have access to lower prices, and more incentive to give the hobby a go. There are so many attributes which make this hobby interesting. It involves basic chemistry, biology, and teaches patience, and discipline (or a sort ). The more people the better. Layton

The fact is that the shops are vital for the hobby. If no shops stocked marine stuff, I would have no idea that the hobby even existed. Undercutting them is not to the benefit of the hobby. Shops don't charge what ever they like. Just like importers they have overheads, maybe even more so than importers. Retail space and staff don't come cheap. By selling direct to the public, or more correctly to the reefers you know, does nothing to get more people into the hobby. Getting new people into the hobby will increase volumes and in turn lower prices. I think everyone agrees that the key to lowering prices is increasing volume per quarantine facility. How is starting up another facility going to increase volume? All it's going to do is potentially take volume away from other importers, which is going to increase everyone's overheads, which really is the significant component in prices. How is the general public meant to stumble across New Zealand Reef Supplies Ltd or Pacificaquaria Ltd (Or whatever they are going to call it) with out a retail presence? Again, this will do nothing to increase volume. For people saying that competition is good no matter what. The fact is that some markets are not driven by the usual market forces. Browsers, wholesale electricity, even telecommunications are all examples of this. There seems to be a general consensus that the shops and importers are making a killing out of the hobby. I don't think this is true. I don't think prices are outrageously expensive as they are. Some things are cheaper, some more expensive than overseas. I'm all for lower prices, but not at the expense of the hobby as a whole in NZ. Anyway, this is all speculation. All that is known is that another facility is being setup. How, where, or even if stuff is being sold is unknown (to me anyway). BTW I think the moderation has been appropriate. Layton

Interesting. So really it's and electronic eye for you're test kits. Not particularly useful for the titrametric kits, where there is a distinct colour change, but for phosphate it would be useful. Wonder why they can't do nitrate? It's only sensing colour intensity after all? Nitrate would be the most useful for me. Layton

I don't think there is any deep resentment. I can't speak for others but defiantly not on my part. I never got personal with any of my statements, and I never will. I think the thread was driven by ignorance more than anything else. I'm over it. I can't change anyones mind. But I can't help but think the hobby may be worse off in the long run from the events unfolding now. Layton

Must be different to what I though it was. I was thinking mass spectrometer style device. Layton

Aren't they REALLY expensive. Like several tens of thousands? Layton

Silicates aren't bad. I think it's another myth which needs to be dispelled. The natural solubility of silica sand doesn't come close to the higher levels of silicate actually found in NSW. I have a refugium of silica sand, with no issues. I'm running it dsb style to try and reduce nitrates. There is no doubt that a dsb will reduce nitrate efficiently (just don't want one in my display), and silica sand is the perfect substrate for a dsb. Reasonably fine, so the required oxygen gradient can be generated at a relatively shallow depth. Silica sand isn't bad. Layton

Unlimited bandwidth, unlimited space, free? Where do I sign up? Sounds too good to be true. Layton

Yes, but that's why the salt we buy costs more than you're average rock salt. The manufactures add the appropriate major element in a form, which once dissolved, will try and replicate what was originally there. It's not perfect, but it works well for many people. Layton

I have noticed that Salifert change and improve their test kits often, which is good. Plus I trust habib, he knows what he's talking about. Layton

I think I got a red sea alkalinity test kit once with a box of salt. It was not that flash, the readings were way off the salifert one. Must have improved since then. Layton

Anyone use JBL test kits? I've tried the calcium one and it seems very similar to the Salifert ones. I needed a new kit quickly, and it's hard to find Salifert ones down here at the moment, so I tried the JBL one, and it seems very good. Unfortunately it is more expensive than the salifert ones, but you can get refill packs , so you're not paying for the spoon, and vial every time. Don't know how much they are though. Has anyone tried any of their other kits? Layton

Pies must still be in holiday mode Layton

That would be Steve Weast's tank. There is a whole page on his site dedicated to this worm: http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_worm.htm This thing was 6 foot long! Layton

That looks like a green stylopora to me. Very nice. How old is it? Layton

Just ready Randy's column on reefkeeping.com, and came across this: I've stopped adding aspartic acid (because the bottle ran out, and I hadn't had time to get another one). But I'll definately start adding it again. I think it did have an effect on growth definately, and maybe colouration, too sort a time to tell though really. Layton

This is the major stumbling block for captive breeding of the majority of marine fish. No one knows what they eat during their larval stages. Places such as the Waikiki aquarium, and one other prominent research center (name escapes me at the moment) have spent years trying to figure this out. They have successfully raised flame angels (along with some other pigmy angel species) and more recently yellow tangs. Currently it's completely impractical for commercial development, but good to know that it could be done if the need arose. Layton