twinkles

scottie there have been cases where parents have used a 2x4 and a horse whip, and then claimed 'reasonable force' and got away with it. Which exactly why the law change was needed.

the people who shout abuse at their kids are just as bad as the people who beat them, and i admit i worry that some parents who are used to belting their kids will now spend more time verbally abusing them instead. There's no point making it illegal for people to smack their kids if nothing is offered to those parents by way of learning new parenting methods. There needs to be a wide angle approach to tackling the child abuse problem, outlawing smacking should just be one little part backed up with alot more help/teaching for parents, and better intervention for at risk kids.

but thats what i'm saying bikbok, yes feed the kids if they need it but something should be done about their parents. Feeding them at school is only fixing the most obvious problem, nothing is being done to address whats going on in these kids homes. The schools shouldn't be expected to do it, there needs to be someone to take action and really look at how these kids are living and what their parents are doing. I wonder how many of the kids who get breakfast at school, never get another meal as good.

We need to change our attitude as a society, away from smacking being acceptable, but the only way to really do that is to put some money into decent parenting courses for first parents, and follow up. The statement that is repeated over and over again by pro-smaking people is that other ways don't work, or are just as damaging. Which shows a disturbing lack of knowledge of other ways to parent. If everyone having a baby was required to learn about other ways of dealing with problems, and then attended follow up groups until their children were 5, we wouldn't see so many abused kids imo. Plunket could run it, like how they do the well child checks every 6 months/year until 5. It would give those at risk parents better strategies for dealing with bad behaviour, someone at plunket they know and can turn to for help and advice, and a group of local parents with children the same age and the same parenting ideas that they can connect with and share experience. A broad intervention like that, from birth, is the only way we're going to have any affect on the parents who think smaking for everything is the only way to go, and who don't really know what to do with their kids except for how their family raises them. I'm not talking about people who chose to smack their kids occasionally, but about the parents who are poor and desperate and stuck in this cycle of violence in a family who thinks its ok to bash your kids up for any indiscretion. I'd think every new mother wants whats best for their child, and doesn't want to ever have to hurt them, but alot of people don't know any other way to parent and end up really hurting them because they don't know what else to do.

we shouldn't be putting any more money into buying kids shoes and breakfasts at school. The whole telethon idea got my back up. Simply there is no excuse in nz for a parent to not supply those things to their children. If a parent can't afford to buy a pair of shoes for their child for $1 from the op shop, they ought to be investegated for being a shoddy parent. And the same goes for food. The benefit gives poor parents enough money to feed and clothe their kids, if you can't afford new branded clothing then you go to the op shops. If you can't afford coco pops you buy porridge, its alot healthier anyway. If you can't afford porridge and $1 shoes because you spent all your money on ciggies and beer, you ought to have your kids taken off you. I spent years struggling on the dpb, and it is very hard, but if you want whats best for your children then you sacrifice those extra treat things and you can get by without your kids missing out. The schools around here and that my daughter goes to are all decile 1, poor area, but my daughter has 15 pairs of shoes to chose from for school, and a good healthy breakfast every morning. If a parent's not managing that then they need a good hard look at themselves, and society needs to realise that its these parents who don't care if their kids are going to school barefoot and hungry who end up beating them to death.

and wasn't there another case where a mother belted her child with a horsewhip and got away with it as reasonable force? Who wants to see that allowed again.

course it'll happen

well i know at least 8 have died over the last couple of weeks, but i've somehow got more now than 3 weeks ago lol. I counted them as i moved them to a bigger tank a few weeks ago, and there were 21. Now there's at least 28 plus one little one that was heaps smaller, and didn't look right, i first noticed it a couple of weeks ago and i've been trying since to get a better look at it, but it hides well and several times i gave up looking and assumed it had been eaten. Finally got a look at it today and realised its a baby killie I hatched some out in a little tray on the shelf above the betta tank, he must have jumped out lol. the betta babies meanwhile are about 1-1 1/2cm now including their tails, and most of them have got some very faint colour on their bottom fins. A few have quite strong red there, and i notice they're the ones with the darkest stripes too. There's a couple of much paler ones that don't seem to have stripes, maybe they'll be white or cambodian? And a couple have hints of irridescent green in the sun. Can't wait to see what colours they grow into :bounce: Here's the best pic i've been able to get, its one of the smaller ones

and lol @ that pic mark, it looks like the person whited out is wearing a cartoon bear suit

I went there a long long time ago, when they were near kaeo, and it was nice then. They had a small group of lions in a huge fenced grassy enclosure, like a big paddock. I thought it was lovely and they had so much more space than at the zoo. If they'd stuck to that i would have been a big fan, but it seems like so many other things its become too commercialised. The general public is more willing to pay to see 30 big cats in little cages than they would to see one little pride in a big pen, and people pay more to go to zion than the zoo so that they can see those 'rare and endangered' white tigers etc. The owners probably got caught into the catch 22 of thinking more cats = more visitors/$$ to build better pens, when its really more cats = higher overheads/more pens needed cheaply/more corners cut

i think the blue backing makes tanks look deeper, as if behind the rocks and plants there's a big open blue pond, and the black makes everything in front stand out much more, shrinks the area that grabs your attention to the main plants and fish. I have black on two of my tanks and one with metallic blue textured paper, might try plain blue next time. Yours looks great

see i'm a bit of a hypocrite there if a teenager was picking on my kids i'd have no problem giving them a solid whack. As for the glass factory, i was brought up going to glass shops and displays with my mum, and i knew that if i decided to be silly and run or anything at the supply places i'd be waiting in the car. Since its far more fun getting to look around i behaved. If someones kids were acting up in a dangerous place i owned i'd have no problem asking them to leave. Although i guess its different when you want the business and don't want to offend the parents.

re the dog example - "logical consequences" are far more effective than smacking, and actually teach the child why their behaviour is not ok, to set them up right for when they are adults. IMO a smack only teaches them to behave to avoid a smack, so what happens when they grow up and are no longer smacked? If the child is pulling the dogs tail, first you tell them thats not nice for the dog, and hurts him, and if child doesn't stop, you pick them up, take them to a different room, and tell them if they can't be nice to the dog they wont be allowed to play with him. Don't come back and say well the child will just go straight back to the dog, if you're the adult in the situation surely you can keep the child in another room for 10 minutes before letting them have another go. If it's a young child who hasn't learnt how to play nicely with the dog, when you take them back to the dog could be a good opportunity to show how to pat him nicely so he feels happy. If it fails and the kid pulls the dogs tail straight away again, take the dog outside and have a ball game, show how much fun you're having playing together without the child and they'll be desperate to play nicely and join in. The result you're aiming for is a child who learns what is and isn't socially acceptable behaviour, and plays nicely with their friends etc because they want to keep playing with them, not because they're afraid of a snack.

i'm sure we're all struggling to pin it down to one idea think i've got mine 1/2 planned...

I disagree that some children need smacking. What those tearaway kids with no respect for anything need are firm and consistent boundries and consequences, whether thats a smack or another consequence is largely irrelevent. Or should i say needed, by the time they get to an age to start causing big problems its a bit late. I have never and will never smack my children, and back the law change whole heartedly. The way I see it working is as a slow but steady change in the way society views smacking, so that the parents in a generation or two wont even consider it as an option. I think alot of the child abuse that goes on is from people who often smack their kids snapping one day when the smack doesn't work and going that bit further to beat them. If we change the boundries of acceptable behaviour is it not likely that in a few generations people might snap and smack their child, rather than snapping and going from smacking to abuse? Of course there's no silver bullet to instantly fix child abuse, and it peeves me off when i hear people blameing sue bradford for the latest deaths. The only way to tackle the problem is through a slow change in the way people view abuse, more support and teaching for parents, and quicker intervention when children are in a bad situation. I think the law change is a first step in the right direction, but of course it can't be expected to instantly halt child abuse, there's nothing that will do that. Please excuse my spelling :-?

ditto

he's perfect Luca is my sons middle name

i think we should do this one as under 40L off the shelf tanks, then start planning the next one with a different theme - 'custom' tanks, or big tanks or something. Could make it a constant thing with 4 different comps a year, one for each type of tank.

well then get one! (because we all need an excuse to set up another tank)

well its over 41L if its 'off the shelf', or under 65 if its a normal tank

not yet, don't think i'd get far with one male but if i can find some more i'm planning to set them up in a heavily planted tank by themselves and see if they multiply if i leave them alone. Beautiful little fish

maybe, i think my partner is going up next week for a week or so, if he's still for sale when he leaves auckland i'll get him to pick him up for me

if you're meaning putting plain tanks next to each other so they can see straight through, you could just leave a little gap between to slide a piece of cardboard in. That way if they seem stressed or stop noticing each other you can 'card' them so they can't see, and just let them see each other for half an hour or so each day when you want to admire them

i use black paper, $4 from paper plus for enough to do my bigg-ish tank and my tiny tank. No problems yet