flatfish
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Posts posted by flatfish
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Hard to tell for certain at such a small size but the second fish looks like a very small common warehou (Seriolella brama). Patterning would be juvenile colours.
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Have a look at this article.
http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2006f/zt01109p068.pdf
Full of scientific jargon but interesting. Basically there are two species of introduced 'common' sailfin plecos known from the Phillipines: the true common pleco and the vermiculated (wavy-lined) sailfin pleco. We likely get both of these species in New Zealand as common plecos and possibly a third species the Orinoco sailfin pleco. The chocolate albino plecos commonly available in the shops are an amelanistic (they lack melanin or dark pigment) form of the true common pleco, P. pardalis. It just goes to show that when you release tropical aquarium fish in a tropical country they can get established.
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yeah its a great book. I've had my copy for a couple of years and use it all the time.
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I use a lot of 'bogwood' as my Plecos (Panaques) eat a lot of it. I've used both shop brought and locally collected pieces. I always boil it before using it, particularly if I've collected it in freshwater as there may be small undesirable critters on it. If it looks dirty I scrub it before boiling it.
I always go for the dark coloured hard 'bogwood' (I'm told its mostly native hardwoods) if I'm collecting it, as its dense, looks great, lasts a long time, and sinks relatively quickly. Bogwood will leach tannins for quite a while which will make the water go tea-coloured. Eventually it will stop leaching but aside from reducing the visibility a little in tank the fish seem to like it (mine are mostly Amazonian).
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I think common plecos are actually less common than gold or redspots. I don't remember seeing any in a while.
My Goldspot is only about 2-3" shorter than my redspot and is about 3 years old vs 6-7. So they don't grow that much smaller.
Hi Ira, You may well be right, although the chocolate or chocolate albino plecos which were commonly available as juveniles recently are an amelanistic form (they lack melanin or black pigment) of common pleco. I suspect that red spots are the most commonly available sailfin pleco at the moment.
As for maximum size, I owned a red spot a few years ago that was 45 cm long (I grew it on from a juvenile in a six foot tank). The reported maximum size for gold spots is 30 cm and I personally haven't seen any much bigger than that.
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I thought goldspot plecos were probably the third most commonly available in NZ behind bristlenoses and red spots so I'm also surprised at the confusion.
Yeah having a blonde moment. Must be an age thing.
I know exactly what a gold spot is but for some reason couldn't place it at the time.Your right about it being reasonably common. Gold spots (Pterygoplichthys joselimaianus) are rarer than common plecos (mainly P. pardalis), and red spot plecos (P. gibbiceps) but still reasonably common. Its a beautiful fish though and doesn't grow quite as large as the other two species.
As for getting another one. The do grow large and when its an adult it would need a fairly big tank and may be a little stroppy with other plecos, but in the short term if your tanks a reasonable size it wouldn't be a problem. I'd personally get a bristlenose (GBA or normal) as they dont grow large and are a nice looking easy to keep pleco.
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ah-ha. Thanks phoenix and firenzenz - the pennies just dropped. :oops: Definitely having a blonde moment. Gold spots are really nice looking plecos and more active during the day than some species.
OK well a gold spot is definitely an omnivore so mainly veggies and algae wafers plus a few meaty foods (bloodworms, shrimps, shrimp pellets, etc.). As its gets larger (they grow to at least a foot long) it will likely get quite confident and territorial, possibly bosing other plecos around in the tank, and it should come out for food.
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Just curious, What are they like for you ?
I'm not sure what a gold spot is, although I'm assuming its a gold nugget. A picture would help as different species can have very different feeding requirements. For example, gold nuggets are largely vegetarian while goldie plecos are one of the very few truly carnivorous plecos. The names that they are sold as are not always a good indication of what they are.
My plecos are mostly vegetarians although I do have carnivorous plecos and they all spend a fair amount of time hiding. The only plecos that come out often are my royal pleco and my male flash plecos as they like their food and will come out when I feed them. The rest only dart out quickly from their hideouts unless they are squabbling. Its probably a good thing that your fish spends a lot of time hiding. I'd be worried if it sat out in the open. If your pleco feels safe it will come out more. Just give it some time.
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Most plecos like hiding much of the time and seem to prefer lower light levels. If they are comfortable in their surroundings they will come out more but they are always likely to be most active in the evenings and at night. As firenzenz says try tempting it with food. I assume you are talking about a gold nugget pleco. They are highly specialised biofilm grazers (ie. largely vegetarian) and should only be very fed very small quantites of high protein food (although they will love eating it). Good luck but its probably never likely to come out the front of the tank and say hello.
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Just remember that many of these L-numbers may well be the same species anyway. Hopefully in a few years we may know the answer. Its a little dodgy calling it 'L002' but it is reportedly by far the most common of many similar looking tiger plecos. Even the experts on PC weren't prepared to be a definitive id on it.
I might have to put some pics on Phoenix44's PC post and see if they think the same on my 'L169's' and 'L271's' (they certainly look a lot like phoenix44's). Just checked my 5 so-called juvenile 'L271's the other day and it looks like I've got 2 boys and 3 girls. Always nice when a plan comes together.
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Thanks for all your hardwork Caryl and Jane. Cant wait to see it.
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Yeah they get much more difficult when you start sorting out species in each family: trevally and jacks; the tropical groupers; and the sweetlips. The threadfin jack is related to our trevally and there is a related species, the Indian threadfin which we also caught which looked very similar.
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here are three illustrations of how difficult species id can be. Each pic is of a different species that we caught on a fisheries trawl survey in Oman. All ids were based on counts of fin rays, scales, fin positions and size, tooth patterns, etc.
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I agree Firenzenz and I don’t think the situation will ever sort itself out. As with Africans, Apistogrammas, etc. if there are lots of similar morphs, and if the taxonomists can’t agree how are we ever likely to. Combine this with exporters (who presumably are not taxonomists) matching the hatch and grouping similar L-numbers together or calling it another similar L-number to avoid the export bans and you have a mess. It certainly doesn’t help when you have a New Zealand importer assigning L-numbers or making up common names. And add hybrids into the mix and it’s a nightmare. At least many plecos are hard to breed.
Unfortunately New Zealand is a very small market and we are unlikely to ever get many top quality desirable named plecos, unless they are commonly available, and I’m sure this wont be the last problem pleco or similar discussion around it. Although I think this is a useful discussion to have. The best we can do is to make informed judgements and try and breed fish together from the same import.
As for the tiger plecos, I thought I made it clear that it could have been anyone of a number of similar L-numbers. I don’t know what Phoenix44’s tiger plecos or mine for that manner were imported as, hence the quotations used when referring to the L-numbers. I don’t think my ‘L271’s’ are that L-number and I think there’s a good chance that my ‘L169’s’ are the same thing. I’m getting them DNA tested to try and get a few answers. I’d at least like to know if I can breed them together.
As for not being an L226, sure that’s my opinion, but I did go to the original species description for Panaque changae (being a marine biologist and fish geek it was inevitable) and I did base my judgement on the criteria given by the taxonomists that described it. In the absence of other information that’s the best I could do.
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My fish are not necessarily L271's but they are not L226's. They were sold as L271's but they may be any one of the other similar looking tiger plecos I listed earlier or a new form without an L-number. The pics on Planet catfish are usually but not always the correct species. Also bare in mind that some of the tiger pleco L-numbers are likely to be the same species. Once the taxonomists sort the species out its not uncommon for several L-numbers to be grouped together.
The so-called L271's have been imported at least twice. One import was clearly not that species, the second import that I know of (the ones that I have) may be. Theres also the 'tiger plecos' for sale at the moment, which may be the same species (maybe even the same import) or something else. Its all a bit of a mess but you definitely have Panaque 'tiger plecos'.
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Personally I dont think they are L226. L226 has a number of fine dark bands on the body and a generally finer dark banding pattern. Your fish has broader dark bands. Have a look at these two images of an L226 and one of my 'L271's'. My '271's' looks slightly different but not much. I think its one of the 'tiger plecos'.
your fish
L226
my Panaque 'L271'
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You are quite right Firenzenz, the genus Panagolus was proposed by DATZ to group the smaller Panaques, but there were no clear characters to separate these species from their larger relies except size so it was not widely adopted. However Panagolus is referred to in the literature including some of the good pleco books so I believe it is worth putting in brackets as forum members are likely to see this term used. Flash plecos are listed on the import list incorrectly as Panagolus L204.
I believe these fish are definitely Panaques based on their dentition (tooth pattern and shape), and based on their body patterning I also believe these fish are one of the so-called ‘tiger plecos’, a terrible term for a number of very similar L-numbers. These ‘tiger plecos’ are either one variable widely distributed species or a few very closely related localised species. The taxonomists will no doubt eventually sort this one out.
Fair enough calling it one L-number because it’s supposedly the most commonly available is a mistake. I’ve got the same problem as you Phoenix44 with a group of ‘L169’s’ and a group of ‘L271’s’ which are quite possibly the same species from the same river system. Its just too hard to tell.
As for L226. L226 has 6-12 thin dark bands on the trunk (body) (this is taken from the original species description). These fish have 2 possibly three wide dark bands on the body. A different patterning to L226. Regardless they are a nice looking pleco and for my five cents worth they need to be fed as though they are a Panaque – wood, plenty of veggies, and very small amounts of high protein food.
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It’s not a Peckoltia as it’s got the wrong tooth pattern, although it may have been called a tiger ‘Peckoltia’. It looks like its got spoon-shaped teeth. I agree with Jamosfish. It’s a dwarf Panaque (Panagolus) species, possibly L002 - apparently the most common of many similar looking ‘tiger pleco’ L-numbers in the hobby. No doubt once they are given scientific names, some new species will comprise more than one L-number. Have a look at L002/L074, L169, L206, L271, L306, L397, L398, L403. Some can be ruled out but not others. I've got some juveniles that were called L271's in the shops but I doubt they are that species. They look very similar, if not identical to yours.
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What stunning looking fighters
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It could be Hopliancistrus sp. L017 as this species looks very similar and is occasionally mixed in with Pseudancistrus sp. L067. If its Hopliancistrus it wont have a yellow edge to the dorsal (top) fin and will also have a group of three large 'hooks' behind each gill plate near the belly. As for not having discrete round spots it could just be an unusually patterned example where the spots often merge. Its still largely spotted. Other plecos have variable patterning. Flash plecos usually have thin white stripes over the body but in some specimens the stripes break up into rows of spots.
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Hi,
common names can be confusing as more than one type of pleco can have the same common name, and some plecos have a number of common names. Your photo is definitely a leopard pleco or gibby, or as they are commonly known here a redspot pleco (Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps) and they can grow to about 45 cm.
As for the confusing L-numbers. A number of years ago a large number of new types of pleco started being exported from South America and imported into europe and elsewhere for aquariums. Many of these were not and are still not scientifically described and did not have common names so it was difficult to keep a track on who had what and what each species was. To provide a system to keep a track on each new type of pleco, the german aquarist magazine DATZ came up with L-numbers. Each time a new species/variety of pleco turned up in the hobby it was given a new L-number (so L1, L2, L3 .... L400, etc.). To further confuse the issue, some species have slightly different variations throughout their home range and these were given new L-numbers so some species have more than one L-number. Hope this makes some sense. For a great resource on freshwater catfish, including plecos, try Planet Catfish (http://www.planetcatfish.com).
Thanls for the offer of your photo. It's a great shot of a very nice redspot pleco.
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I agree David. I only use Jager heaters. They are expensive but last for years, keep an accurate temperature, and have thick glass so they are harder to break. I've only cracked one (through stupidity) and its worth noting that at least in that case, it shorted out and didn't give me an electric shock when I put my hand in the tank. I chucked a couple of Jagers out a few years ago that were about 10 years old and were working fine. I thought they had lasted well and needed replacing. As David says, look at the cost of the fish in your tank. Its not worth buying cheap heaters.
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thanks dimebag. They certainly are a great fish.
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thanks firenzenz. Great looking fish and a nice shot.
pleco identification tips please?
in Beginners Corner
Posted
Does it look anything like the June photo of the month winner.
http://www.fnzas.org.nz/index.php?PG=potm
This is one of the sailfin plecos which all grow quite large (in this case whats called a redspot pleco, gibby, or leopard pleco and it grows to 45 cm). The other likely common option is the common bristlenose (look up Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus on Planet catfish) which grows to about 12-15 cm.
If its a sailfin pleco there are more slender ones without a 'hump' above the head and stockier ones with a 'hump' (the redspot pleco is one of the stocky ones). The hump is only obvious in larger plecos but they should still look stocky or slender in smaller fish. The slender ones are usually called common plecos of which there are at least two sorts sold under that name in NZ, quite possibly three (the common pleco, Pterygoplichthys pardalis; the Orinoco sailfin pleco, P. multiradiatus, and the vermiculated (means wavy lined) sailfin pleco, P. disjunctivus). If its one of these and you're interested in taking it further you could look at Planet catfish and there will be a heap of photos of each one but P. pardalis is apparently the most common one.
There are two main types of stocky ones available in NZ: the red spot pleco (Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps) and the gold spot pleco (Pterygoplichthys joselimaianus). These two are easy to tell apart. Red spots are covered in large brown spots separated by a thin margin giving a honeycombed appearance while gold spots are covered with golden spots which often merge on the body to form irregular lines (sort of the opposite pattern).
Just to add to the chaos there are also albino forms of at least the common pleco and the redspot pleco, and also a chocolate form of the common pleco (P. pardalis) called a chocolate albino or chocolate pleco.
Hope this isn't to confusing.