Joze Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 I have one female with severe curvature. of the spine I suspect its a case of damage at the fry stage as opposed to in bred traits. I do have her separated and have mated her across an imported male. The fry appear to be in good order and growing well. Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 i get them like that now and them and feed them to my walking fish or my turtles i wood not try and breed from it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joze Posted August 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 I was curious to see where they would go in genetically passing it on. Either way I regard the famle and offspring as fresh food as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 If she was the only one with the curvature it would more likely be through damage rather than genes. I still would not have bred from her but if she and the fry are only for food then it won't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 Bad news..... The problem shows up clearly in guppies... its TB. If you want to be sure you can get an autopsy done (I did) and they will verify it isn't a genetic fault, but its 99% likely. I found it in mine over a year ago and since then expect some of my other fish to die occasionally, it affects the smaller fish like neons, guppies etc, my danios went skinny and developed red lesions. The vet reckons its a problem that affects about 30% of fish sold in LFS, so you can't even dump all your fish because you'll probablly end up buying it in again. It can be transferred via equipment and plants... there was a pic I saw on net that first alerted me but I can't find it. I cull any fish that look slighly odd asap to prevent it being spread but they still pop up now and then... if ya want some guppies I have over 100 that I'm about to kill (no sign of TB, just too many guppies), but I wouldn't sell them to anyone knowing they may be infected.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 Well, I have done quite a bit of reading on this subject and can find nothing 'conclusive' about spine deformities being a sign of TB, apart from a reference to Skeletal deformaty, which could mean bumps or lumps, or anything. References say that TB is caused by a Myrobacterum, like these. ·Myobacterium piscium ·Myobacterium platypoecilis ·Myobacterium anabanti ·Myobacterium fortuitum ·Myobacterium salmoniphilum ·Myobacterium marinum And the symptoms can include: ·Loss of appetite ·Progressive thinness ·Sluggish movement ·Folded fins ·Eye protrusion ·Dark coloration and granular appearance of the cornea (this is the first sign in Angelfish). ·Skeletal deformity ·Hanging at the surface ·Skin defects, including blood spots and open wounds that may ulcerate ·Black spots, or overall dark coloration (in Cichlids particularly). ·Fin rot, characterised by the outer rays falling out. ·Scales loosening and falling out ·General swelling and scale protrusion (as in Dropsy) Just like White Spot, there are several reasons that can cause it, and I certainly know that constantly breeding and interbreeding from the same family of guppies 'does' produce bent spines, just as many of the symptoms above could be something entirely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 Agreed, I have a couple of glow plugs that have bent bodies, but they always had bent bodies... the guppies, usually the female, develop a very pronounced hump in their back... its pretty unmistakable once ya see it..... it doesn't stop them from breeding and can live for quite a while. I assume they don't pass on the tb to their off spring since i have lots of others that heven't developed it. the tb is passed on by other fish eating the bodies of dead fish and other fish eating faeces. IMO ditch the fish asap. if you want to be sure take it alive (must be living) to vet to get a lab to dissect it, costs about $60. I took mine to Vets at Jansens. I don't mean to create a blanket diagnosis without even seeing the fish, but having had vets and others say it was most likely not TB, it was better to find out than treat my fish for unknown problems... I personally think that once you see it, you know it ain't a pretty affliction... some other fish have died, lost all danios, but discus, bristlenose, ram, neons, corys, etc. all still ok over a year later. I am sad my fish have tb, but take precautions not to pass it on to my other tanks, wash my hands after any maint, etc. I say its better to know than to ignore the possibility... it's more common than most fisho's want to admit.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 According to this, it 'really' is dangerous. Fish TB http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/man ... ishTB.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Yup, read that one, and about a dozen other articles with some pretty horrendous photos... the other link i posted isn't the worst i have found.... I debated for ages when I did some reading about TB. I thought about ditching all my tanks since I have a 6 year old who used to play with the fish.... I reconsidered opting for education. We treat handling anything in any of my tanks very seriously and she knows she can't touch the water... we are all very careful now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suemack Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 hi Joze - I had some problems with bent spines when my guppies started breeding - tested my water hardness (GH) and found that it was v. soft - am on tank supply. Since I started adding small amounts of African Cichlid mix and keeping a v.close eye on my ph hasn't happened again -regards Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 That's very interesting Sue. I never thought pH might have an effect but it makes sense I suppose. Perhaps they need the extra calcium and the bent ones had osteoporosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joze Posted August 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 if it were all I would be destroying the lot and disinfecting the tanks with some seriously strong hydrogen peroxide. However this is one female and one only out of maybe..........200 fish. It appears to be spinal damage and overall her health is fine, I do not suspect TB at all. TB is relatively easy to spot. My tank hygiene is good and I have a protocol which is easy to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 You're definitely right on this one peety. any fish, ANY fish with any spinal deformity = think TB, esp if it's acquired later on in life. it's the no one cause of such lesions in my experience. the other 2 causes---genetics n nutritional( usually Vit C, calcium deficiency relatively rare) r less common. Do take extra precautionary measures Jo. u shouldn't b surprised that the guppy is otherwise healthy...If it was TB, all it means is that she has a tumour like lesion( granuloma) in her backbone. She'll only get really crook under stressful conditions...... Hope u still have her isolated.... any dropsy cases lately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.L Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 I have the problem in a couple of my neons. They get bent bodies. I found that once my whole school of neons had it. It doesn't make them last that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 TB is common in neons( n other characins??), livebearers( guppies, platies etc in nz n probably worldwide.. apparently anabatids r highly susceptible. any fish can get it though. in neons, they get this specific 'syndrome' where the caudal peduncular region( around tail base) starts to discolour n whiten( might appear raised too)....often confused with neon tetra disease( plistophora) quite often they appear emaciated. once in awhile, u get a few sporadic outbreaks of popeye. I've tried isolation, quarantine, but it's never easy....... perhaps a large tank, and uv filtration might help longterm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 From what I've been reading about fish TB I've come to the conclusion it's pretty hopeless trying to keep it from spreading or to treat it. Seems the only thing you can really do is keep fish fed well and in good conditions so they can mostly fight it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 yeah, once a community is struck with TB...chances r it's gonna b dif to eradicate even if u do a big clean up etc( mainly because we're still unable to detect carriers) TB is one of the reasons why quarantining any new individuals is so important, and at least for 3-4 wks minimum.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 A lot of articles put the incubation time for TB, or at least the time before symptoms become noticable in the several months to several years range, which would make quarantine useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 yeah..that's why we need a diagnostic test for fish....perhaps pricking them n collecting some blood( or snip bit of the gills)--a simple little test kit that aquarists can use at home...then again, not easy to develop...and probably interpret too...diagnosing TB in a herd of deer/cattle can b quite challenging at times using blood tests Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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