Ira Posted April 14, 2002 Report Share Posted April 14, 2002 How stupid is it to say, "Because we don't like them, they can not be discussed." How about diseases? Should we not discuss them because we don't like them? How about Discus? I think discus are more trouble than they're worth. So any mention of them should be banned from the board. And feeding fish live food is cruel, any mention of live food should be banned too. What about things like Betta vases? They're cruel, so we shouldn't be able to talk about them either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted April 14, 2002 Report Share Posted April 14, 2002 I think any topic that is not generally morally incorrect sould be allowed to be discussed. To ban certain topics is discrimination. If you ban one, you have to ban all to be fair. Someones personal view is exactly that, their view. It may not be acceptable to someone else while completely acceptable by others. If we were to ban the topics of every minority group we would not be able to discuss anything. If you have certain feelings about a topic, by all means express them, but please don’t go on-and-on about the same thing constantly. Regarding ballon fish: Express your views (within reason). The people who read them may even be influenced by them and use the information in a positve way. Remember too, the hobby benifits from positive comments and positive criticism. Negative comments do not help anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fee Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 I'm a bit confused by this cruelty thing. I can see why colour dying fish is cruel, due to the pain and significantly shortened life. However (and I may be greatly mistaken) Balloon mollys and Gouramis are the product of selective breeding(much the same as lyretails), and as far as I have ever experienced do not live shortened lives or appear to be in pain. Red Parrots are man-made hybrids which are created by humans fertilizing the eggs of the appropriate fish (Devils and Severums). They are clearly a bit of a "hot" subject, and I can certainly see the arguments against man-made hybrids. They cannot however soil natural fish populations as they are usually infertile. As for their appearance it is a matter of personal taste, I would not judge people for either loving or hating them for that!! Their "deformaties" do not hurt them in anyway, they can eat well, swin well and mine have lived long lives and grown to huge sizes. If any of this is incorrect I would appreciate to be corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 You are right Fee, there are really two different issues. I thought the balloon fish were being made that way but was assured they are a natural hybrid being selectively bred. There are apparently a few albinos around now which are not bred that way but injected with dye. Squid wants to see all fish going back to their 'pure' form I think and he is entitled to his opinion but we don't have to agree with him. If we all liked the same fish it would be a bit boring wouldn't it? Someone somewhere else in these posts said he didn't like discus. I have been waiting for all the discus lovers to defend their fish but they have been silent. It is good that we have so many to choose from - despite having many banned from NZ. Since Squid has told us which fish he doesn't like, perhaps he will now tell us which ones he favours - and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 I don't want to get involved in the main topic of this discussion, but I would like to ask a question or two. How does one breed an infertile fish? Is the male sterile, or the female? The meaning of 'Infertile' means 'Incapable of producing offspring' This is no reflection on anything mentioned above or elsewhere, I am genuinely interested to understand how this event occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fee Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 I mentioned that they are man-made. Ie artificially- in a dish, the eggs and sperm are mixed together, fertilised and the fry raised. A Devil will not breed with a Severum therefore man did it for them. They cannot occur in nature, whereas a Balloon molly could in theory be produced in the wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 I fully understand the principles of crossbreeding fish, but I'm still slightly confused about the infertility bit, although your explanation was quite clear. If fish 'A" the female has eggs but they are not fertilized, and fish 'A' is also a hybrid of some description, is the only way to fertilize the eggs through a male of similar species? If the resulting offspring turn out to be infertile once more, does this above procedure have to continue in the hope of producing a fertile fish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted April 15, 2002 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 I think in the case of Parrots they're not worried about producing a fertile fish. They just take a severum and a red devil or whatever they use and start again with a big batch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fee Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 They don't try to breed Parrots with Parrots, they just continue to create them using the origional method, Devils and Severums. This is not a species that could continue to exist without mans continuing creation of it. Parrots will endevour to breed, they will lay eggs, the males will act as if to fertilise them, however, just like as a mule (a Donkey Horse Cross) is infertile, so is the Parrot. The eggs, unfertlised, contract fungus and therefore get eaten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 Caryl has been waiting for someone to defend discus. Well its not going to be me. I keep discus, lots and lots of them. I find them very easy to keep and breed. If someone has difficulty keeping them then thats ok. When I first started keeping fish I did not like oscars much, but now I have 4 and enjoy them immensely. No fish needs to be defended! I cannot keep bristlenose, - I know why now so I do not try to keep them anymore. If someone is having trouble keeping a certain fish there is probably a very good reason. Instead of rubbishing that particular fish it would be better to try to find the cause of the problem. Back to hybrids. If you want a couple of excellent examples try goldfish and dogs. All goldfish and all dogs have the same scientific names and have been selectively bred to give certain shapes and sizes. Some of them are practical and some not. However for every one there is someone who likes them. Provided the variation does not hinder a normal life for the animal there should be nothing wrong. Sure, YOU don't have to like it. Oops, I'm in danger of repeating myself, something I mentioned we should not do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squid Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 Thanks for the invitation Caryl but that is far to big a subject for me to get into, but if a bloke has been breeding fish for 40 years and is still breeding fish then there must be a lot of fish out there on my love list, and very few on my hate list. I think I shall take a seat on the side for a bit and I may get a better feel of what I should or should not write about. I thought this forum was to create discussion, but now I dont know,I will be watching though, as anything fishy interests me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted April 19, 2002 Report Share Posted April 19, 2002 Hi Squid, if you happen to read this. We took the poll and the results are in the 2 hot 2 handle section along with my final apologies on the matter. I would like to ask you a question, and that is, but if a bloke has been breeding fish for 40 years and is still breeding fish then there must be a lot of fish out there on my love list, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 On the subject of ballon type fish I have come across something that people may find interesting, and I'd be interested to know if anyone has noticed it in other fish. When my pair of convict cichlids last bred a few months ago one of the about 50 offspring that I kept had this so called 'ballon' apperance. The fish doesn't seem to be disadvantaged in any way and is now one of the larger female offspring at around 3-4cm long. In this instance this trait has appeared quite naturally and unintentionally, but I guess that someone some time ago noticed a similar occurance in mollies and gouramis and bred from these stock in an effort to create more fish with this trait. I wonder how common this trait actually is and with what frequncy it occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 On the subject of ballon type fish I have come across something that people may find interesting, and I'd be interested to know if anyone has noticed it in other fish. When my pair of convict cichlids last bred a few months ago one of the about 50 offspring that I kept had this so called 'ballon' apperance. The fish doesn't seem to be disadvantaged in any way and is now one of the larger female offspring at around 3-4cm long. In this instance this trait has appeared quite naturally and unintentionally, but I guess that someone some time ago noticed a similar occurance in mollies and gouramis and bred from these stock in an effort to create more fish with this trait. I wonder how common this trait actually is and with what frequncy it occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 One has to ask if this is a good thing. If you have made the decission that there should be a new shape of Convict Cichlid (Parrot Convict for example), maybe keeping this deformed fish is a good idea. If however there is no plan to ever create a "new look convict" the fish should have been culled out long ago. If it ever breeds it is likely to transfer the balloon characteristic into its offspring (at least some of them). Eventually it will weaken the breed unless specifically refined into something new and kept totally separate from normal Convicts. I recently got some Blue Acara's at our club auction. I was stupid and did not check them before buying them. There were 4 and they only cost $1.50 total. Well what garbage they were. They were all stunted and deformed. Of course they promptly bred a bunch of equally bad offspring. The whole lot ended up in my oscar tank - bye bye Acaras. Now there is no risk of that trait spreading to other Acaras. I hope others follow suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 It probably is not a good thing, but my wife will not let me destroy her as she says that she is a cute fish. Do not worry, I do not intend to breed from her. All my convicts are separted into male only and female only tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuviceps Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 Fee i don't wish to offend yourself or anyone else as i am a new member but i must point out you said parrots are man made - have you got some paperwork or evidence to back this up? as i have seen numerous articles in magazines and internet from people stating no ones knows where they come from. what is to say two species could not have produced Parrots. i have heard of people producing fry from two parrots therefore they could not be sterile. As an example of this firemouths and convicts will produce offspring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted June 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 It's well known that parrots are man made hybrids. When they say that, "Noone knows what they come from." They mean that everyone argues over which particular species are hybridized to create it. I think most say it's a severum and red devil, some say firemouth, some totally different species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuviceps Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 clarification on firemouths and convicts these two species WILL cross breed and produce fry therefore why not severums/red devils etc you state man made but as yet no proof, i see Fee's have laid eggs but fungused, tell me this - if parrots are infertile therefore they can't reproduce What happens if they can or some one proves this - as i have been told about (as per man made theory) therefore wouldn't this prove they couldn't be man made hybrids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 ...if parrots are infertile therefore they can't reproduce What happens if they can or some one proves this - as i have been told about (as per man made theory) therefore wouldn't this prove they couldn't be man made hybrids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.