sharn Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 hello all im wondering what your views would be on me starting up a petition on pacu to have them made a permit only species in nz. the reason im thinking of doing this as i see so many idiots buying these as pirahna only to have them grow 2' long and try to re-home them. because you need a minimum of 1000L, most people just dont have the room (and normally people with 1000L+ know their stuff and dont want pacu). my theory is that if you had to pay to get a permit (not sure how much thatd be, the price of someone to come around and have a look at your tank) you would be dedicated enough to provide them with a good home and would really want them, money wouldnt be a factor. if they had permits not so many dicks would go and buy them for their standard 4 footer because of the costs involved. i know this would be a large task which would probably consist of people who would like to see pacu made a permit only species PMing me their details and i would put them into a list. would i sumbit this to MAF or something like that? it just breaks my heart that people would be so silly as to buy them for the 'cool factor', ive read of many that have had to be killed, eaten or just died due to problems arising from stunted growth and i want to do something about it... let me know what you think guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted January 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 thanks so much for your support mystic. im thinking the details i will need will be your name, address and phone number. also if you wish you can add a reason why you agree with the petition and at the end i will go through the reasons and make a list of why we think they should be made permit only which will be put up the 'cover page' so to speak. thanks to all who support this petition in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted February 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 good point, was talking in the chat room the other night and someone mentioned how they took some pacu off a indian resteraunt... the diddle then went and ordered 20 more! maybe they could also make a submission along with the petition... will give our local a ring and see if they can point me to head office... cheers for the suggestion, i think its going to take all the help i can get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 I think it would be a long hard road to walk trying to get some form of "legal" control over this growing problem. The LFS's are fully aware of what they are selling, but of course it all boils down to the contents of the till at the end of the working day, plus un-qualified staff that are out to impress their bosses by getting that big sale. We see it every day in the shops ... Overstocked tanks.. Dying Fish.. Fighters in containers they can hardly move in.. and the list goes on.. but Pacu's are only part of the problem, as there are many fish that are sold to make a fast buck that only leads to devestation for the unwary purchaser who either ends up in tears or packs the hobby in completely. The LFS's "SHOULD" know better.. but everyone here on these forums has the ability to spread the word by either word of mouth or in posts here with regard to the pitfalls of these fish and others... so educating the unwary here is the first big step that we can all take. Many of these fish will outlive a dog or cat if kept correctly.. but just like the cuddly puppy or cat.. many fish are bought on looks without much thought to the consequenses Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Heya sharn, u have my back (but you already knew that). I was just thinking about our convo today when at the LFS looking at the pacus swimming around lazily. Even though I know I'd need to get another huge tank I STILL want some! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanksman Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 I agree with Bill. I like the idea but where do you stop - What about plecos theyre cute and useful until it gets too big for the tank. And in my opinion I am sick to death of seeing LFS's sell a couple of goldfish and a 8 or so litre goldfish BOWL so that the goldfish can go off home to die slowly and probably painfully in a three year olds bedroom. That is what I would like LFS's to stop but hey if theres a buck in it they will do it. Besides who else will buy all the chemicals :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 You should see what some people want to keep parrots (birds) in and when u tell them all about their requirements they get pissed. Went in to Animates today and they had them (Pacu) labeled as something different and stated that they don't usually grow more than 8 inch in tanks, that and the water dragon that only had a small bowl to drink out of. Now the best thing to do is ring the manager and tell them that you won’t be going there again due to the conditions the animals are keeped in. That would be the easiest way as buying anything in the store supports this continuing even if it is cheeper than the LPS that takes the extra time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted February 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 i agree with ya bill, while many goldfish do die a unesscessary death it is much easier to properly house a goldfish than a pacu, they just really should not be sold to people, its like selling a small stingray to be kept in the average household aquarium. alot of fish have this problem but pacu are the main ones i see around and i am only willing to give it a go, even if it fails it still may make some people take notice, and then later on maybe another person would give it a go and carry on and on until it gets changed. even if i am the one insignificant being among millions, its worth a shot. i have already turned my back on one of the LFS's down here, i rung them up and told them how irresponsible they were, needless to say she got rather angry at me, with so many fishkeepers not in the know (like on forums/in contact with alot of other 'fishy' people) its hard to get the word out... ill give it a couple of months before i close the petition thing, is it too much to ask for it to be made sticky so newbies can have a read any maybe post their veiws? i understand if its a no-go though. if i get less than a couple of hundred ill pack it in... i will be travelling around all the LFS i can get to to see if they would like to also put their names down. thankyou to all who submit details, every little bit counts and i dont mind putting in a small amount of effort to see what comes of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Hi again Sharn, Any cause that is aimed at the prevention of cruelty to "any" animal or creature, is in my book a good cause, and I think that many on these forums would agree that the keeping of such species under un-favourable conditions , or being sold without fully explaining the outcome to the customer, is something that we would all like to do something about, but your quest for having to hold a permit for such species would be highly unlikely to occur. We either have fish that are banned.. or not allowed to be kept as they are some type of threat to the environment... as with the Koi Carps, but of course the species will always be found in some form or other, despite the restrictions. If the public (via these and other forums and sites).. are educated and enlightened to the consequences of keeping such fish, then eventually.. (and it may take some time).. the "would be" purchasers that consider buying these fish on impulse will get the message and think twice about what they are doing.. and this in turn will reduce the sales of such fish in the LFS's. Why do we not see many common species in the shops anymore..? Because there is no market for them.. and this could happen in this case if the public become fully aware of this situation... and others like it. A good start would be a well written article in the Aquarium World. As regards making this thread sticky: Sticky post are information posts that members need for information about the site.. the Rules and Regs.. Announcements and such.. or other info on certain aspects that are constantly asked about on the forums. The subject above does not fall into this area... but the Admins may consider it for sticking. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted February 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 good idea, ill see if the petition thing gets much response but in the meantime i will attempt to start writing a half decent article... any chance of them being made illegal full stop? or only if theyre a threat to our enviroment would that happen, dont see how that one would work as we have alot of fish not allowed in that wouldnt do anything to our enviroment (ie tropicals). thanks for your suggestions bill, much appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caper Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Good luck Sharn...sounds like you have lots of support from your fellow New Zealanders on this matter! Pat yourself on the back, you deserve it for at least wanting to try. Too often, we as the human race will complain and yet not even make an effort to make a change/difference...congrats to the person who does This site is a magnificant educational tool for anybody who wants to learn, and I certainly agree it is great source to get info out to people! Congrats to the FNZAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keri Anne Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Just found this thread... if Petition is still going please PM me as I would like to add my details. Also how's the artical going.... might be worth sending a copy to Campbell Live via the TV3 website. Good on ya mate - a very impressive cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted June 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 nothing really happened, it seems MAF probably wont take much notice and putting a restriction would be too time consuming and costly. it amazes me we're allowed fish like this into the country when parachromis species arent (and other species of fish obviously). having them made illegal would be sad though, i love these fish and im sure people out there with massive aquariums love theirs also, its just the people that keep them in small aquariums (which is probably 95% of them), i guess its going to have to be an 'informing people' thing... i always make a point to go 'gee, look mum! there are those fish that grow to 2 foot long' when i see people going 'ooooh, pirahna!!' i can write an article and send it to caryl but the thing is i dont write articles too well.... more like novels :lol: if i do write one it might be a good idea to send it to campbell live- thanks keri! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 You write it Sharn and I will edit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 hi, it amazes me that we had a tankful destroyed by MAF for not being on the standards list,although it could have been a spelling mistake. those golden cichlids were another one that was destroyed, due to spelling mistake on invoice. next shipment same fish, let in. so what does that tell ya!!!!! importers only bring in what is asked for,take away the demand and that fish won't come in, not much point having fish taking up tank space and food if the demand isn't there. so go for it i say, need to get it across to the buyers of these beautiful fish that they grow so big and reasonble fast,and personally have seen full grown pacu's smash through 10ml glass without a scratch on them and with very little effort.pacu's along with alot of other very large fish should be kept in public aquaria only. those pacu's are now in a public aquaria down south,they did how ever spend 3 days in a bath tub. not good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2fishy Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 You should see what some people want to keep parrots (birds) in and when u tell them all about their requirements they get pissed. Went in to Animates today and they had them (Pacu) labeled as something different and stated that they don't usually grow more than 8 inch in tanks, that and the water dragon that only had a small bowl to drink out of. Now the best thing to do is ring the manager and tell them that you won’t be going there again due to the conditions the animals are keeped in. I used to work at the Tauranga Animates, i can give u the managers number! Also Bill u wrote: The LFS's are fully aware of what they are selling, but of course it all boils down to the contents of the till at the end of the working day, plus un-qualified staff that are out to impress their bosses by getting that big sale. We see it every day in the shops ... Overstocked tanks.. Dying Fish.. Fighters in containers they can hardly move in.. and the list goes on.. but Pacu's are only part of the problem, as there are many fish that are sold to make a fast buck that only leads to devestation for the unwary purchaser who either ends up in tears or packs the hobby in completely. PLEASE dont generalise.I take care of the fish dep at Animal Antics in Tauranga and I always make sure prople go home with as much info about the fish they have bought or want to buy as i can. I couldnt care less about how much money the business (sorry Beth) makes as it has nothing to do with me, i only care about the health of the fish, I am NOT going to sell it to someone if it just going to die, just so they will come back and buy more and then the business will make more money. I want to have a good rep thanks. Sorry about the essay but just sick of ppl thinking that all LFS workers know nothing. PS sharn come in to AA and i will support ur petition as i dont buy in the pacus either coz whos gonna have a big enough tank?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted June 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 good on your 2fishy- your the first pet shop person that has enough knowledge, good on you! i was in the shop you mentioned doing our clubs poster rounds and there was a new girl there, we started chatting about fish and i told her about the pacu, she was really amazed (cause the chart said they grow to 20cm) but im not sure if anythings going to be done about it- after all, would you beleive some goth looking person whos rabbling on about fish :lol: craig- im hearing ya bout that glass breaking mate was telling me about rescuing 5 that had smashed thru a tank with 14mm glass or something insane like that!!! tank busters is an under statment :lol: caryl- when i get some time ill chuck a novel together :lol: i wonder why we have no laws for fish, yet we have them for nearly every other animal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keri Anne Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 There are a few good pet shops arround... Deco City Pets won't even have plecos except under special order. But then 90% of their buisness seems to be 'word of mouth' so they realise what their rep is worth. - They're building a darn good one IMHO. Seems like the smaller shops care more about their customers sometimes. Bigger ones may have more range but the smaller ones seem to give better advice and are almost always happy to source things for you. - At least that's been my personal experiance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Hi there 2fishy, You say: PLEASE dont generalise.I take care of the fish dep at Animal Antics in Tauranga Not "generalising" by "any" means. Just take some time to read some of the posts by members here that have.. either recieved poor information.. or been sold something unsuitable to their needs... be it equipment or fish. You, as an individual may do as you have mentioned.. but it would be true to say that many of the stores are staffed by persons that don't have a clue about the hobby... and many "have" to use unskilled staff on weekends or at busy times. Several months back I was in a store looking for Guppies, plus some pump parts. The owner was there, and jumped on me almost as soon as I walked in the door with the general.. "Can I help you".. After politely telling them I wanted to look around.. I spotted some fish I wanted. To cut this short.. the owner came over and five minutes later there were several fish injured in the tank due to the net being thrashed from one end of the tank to the other. I walked away and said I'd changed my mind.. but spotted some similar ones in another tank. The owner rushed to get them.. (using the same wet net BTW).. and I said.. "I'LL catch them thank you" The owner walked away red faced and left me to it. The pump parts.. When I bought the pumps there, they said there would be no prob with spares like Diaphrams etc.. but on the day.. they said they had "never ever" stocked these parts.. but were happy to sell me a new pump.. of the same type. No 2fishy.. not generalising.. but having recieved similar treatments in the large centres.. I can only post from my point of view. You say: as i dont buy in the pacus either coz whos gonna have a big enough tank?? Lots of people have.. and for those that can provide for them it is fine.. which is what this topic is about. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2fishy Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Sharn- yeah i took over from that girl, she had no clue ... she thought whitespot was a tropical disease and thought if the goldfish got it, it was fungus so treated it with melafix. You should come in sometime and put a poster up or something, if customers come in and ask me a question i dont know the answer to i give them this website addy and get them to ask u guys! so a poster would be real handy! Ive been quite aware of how large pacus get for quite sometime! Animates still sells them regardless of who buys them and how big their tank is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 2fishy said: she had no clue ... she thought whitespot was a tropical disease and thought if the goldfish got it, it was fungus so treated it with melafix nuf said. :) Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2fishy Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Sorry Bill for getting my heckles up but it just bums me out that most petshops and their staff have a bad rep, i think ppl should have to have quals to sell live animals or stuff for live animals. As for the weekend staff, they know nothing at all! its not their fault tho, its the owners/managers for not getting them the training they so desperately need. they quite often ring me in the weekends to answer their customers curly questions via the phone, which does please me. I try to keep the fulltime staff up to date on whats new, what special needs they have etc. Sometimes its a lost cause tho coz they dont seem to care as much as i do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharn Posted June 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 bill- lots of people have tanks big enough to house 1-2 pacu but how many people are going to use a 1000L+ for pacu? theyre not classed as overly pretty (i happen to think theyre gorgeous), theyre big and clumsy, can smash almost anything you put in the tank, eat lots and create lots of waste compared to say that stunning planted tetra tank :lol: ive often been told 'what a waste' when i talk about the 5000L i want to build for rescuing, its sad, cause a fish is a fish, just cause you like a different type dont mean that a tank is wasted on a fish. if anything the big fish need more help than the small ones. keri- that shop sounds real good, most people dont realise your common you pay 20 bucks for is going to be able to reach 50cm no sweat if you provide the room (hence alot stunted). i wish we had more around like that! ill be happy the day i hear of a store that makes you pass at least a general knowledge test on fish before you get hired two cents added, back to TM :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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