petplanet Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 I am planning a new sump system for the new house. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I have truckloads of space to put it so I am thinking of using 4 six foot tanks. Tank 1 - settling tank for water coming from the tank(s) upstairs and home for the protein skimmer(s) Tank 2 - rock tank for filtration and possible grow out tank Tank 3 - water change tank Tank 4 - refuge/grow out tank and return pump(s) Tank 2 and 3 would be plumbed so they can be disconnected from the system if I need to mix new saltwater or if I need a seperate tank for any reason. I will have 1 or 2 tanks upstairs depending on if a wall can be removed. These will be about 650-800 litres each with the sump system being 2000-2600 litres depending on tank final demensions. I figure more water the better as I want a large fish population upstairs and the water volume downstairs will make the system very stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 why have the skimmer in one of the display tanks?? chuckit in the sump/fuge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 with water volume like that a skimmer wont fit in the top tank as it will have to be a large skimmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misnoma Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 I think he means all four of those tanks are his sump, display tanks not pictured (for Brianemone) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petplanet Posted September 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Yeah, these four tanks are the sump system. The skimmer is the one thing that really concerns me. Serious $$$. Will have to be BIG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 why four six foot sumps??? whynot one twelve foot display and one sixfoot sumps and a four foot water change tank??? other than all the added water its not really going to be worth the added effort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Put another baffle in the #1 tank so that you have a diagonal flow of water. At the moment as it is, it flows straight across to the skimmer. An extra baffle either end would do it. Alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 why four six foot sumps??? whynot one twelve foot display and one sixfoot sumps and a four foot water change tank??? completely agree brian, go the bigger display! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petplanet Posted September 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Handbrake has set a limit on the upstairs tanks. There is a funny half wall in the house. I am picking it is not structural but you never know. If I can take it out then I will have a rack with two tanks on it, double decker style. That way the tanks don't take a massive amount of floor space and I can have heaps of fish. I figure you just can't have to much water in your sump system. I will use pallet racking for the sump stands. That is why the sump tanks will be big to fill the shelves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Honestly Michael, you dont need your sump bigger than half of your display volume. You can still have another 3rd tank for a 30% water change tank, but 4 six footers may be overkill. What was the main reason you were thinking of this system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifty Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 if he has the room why not have a large sump system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misnoma Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 The phrase "because I can!" comes to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 if he has the room why not have a large sump system bigger water changes, more maintenance, more tanks = more things that can go wrong. i think sump and refugium volume = same volume of your display is sufficient... unless you have reason otherwise (big frag growout tank, macroalgae tank, equipment tank etc) no reason why you cant go bigger, but the display is what you're going to be looking at. id put the difference towards a bigger skimmer instead. if it were me and I had that room, go for 2 x 6 footers, not 4! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 I use 2 sumps. My tank is almost 1500 litres, sump/fuge is 740 + sump is another 400. I find the big empty sump very handy. Its got no light on it so stays clean, and its nice to have space for equipment/resin/carbon etc. Just one thing to keep in mind, as Chimera said. More things can go wrong. I am stillstweaking my system out after almost a year, and there are things that need adjusting. Also remember that more water volume does has serious disadvantages. What to use carbon? Well start buying by the 25kg sack. Zeovit, win lotto. PH stability over night? Going to take a lot of ligts to reverse light the whole system. etc. So just things to keep in mind. I just think mine is on the verge of overkill is why. Regards Pieman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 What to use carbon? Well start buying by the 25kg sack :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 It's not like we're talking an extra 24 feet of main tank full of corals and fish polluting the water. We're talking extra water volume staibilizing the water conditions and more filtration. If anything that would likely cut down the needed water changes. It's not going to be much more bio load on the system in those tanks. I say go for as big as you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcookie Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 Very very interesting thread Michael....Afraid to say that I am using your system as a bit of a guinea pig. I had been thinking about three L A R G E containers for sump/fuge/mixing-tank and one medium (1100 ltr) display tank...fairly similar to your proposal. Am amazed that people consider having more water to be less safe. Like some others here, and like most serious reading on the topic suggests, the more water the more stable. Now about your handbrake, dont forget that handbrakes have been known to fail, and regular WOF checks keep them on their toes. :evil: 8) 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petplanet Posted September 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 bigger water changes, more maintenance, more tanks = more things that can go wrong. Yes the water changes will be big but I figure they will be easier to do. Close off water change tank, do water change while emptying water change tank into main system, mix new saltwater in tank, bring to temp and rejoin to system the next day. As far as more maintenance, the auto water top up will save me a lot of work, same amount of time testing, water changes a little longer but they will be easier. More things can go wrong but then who is better of, the person with the small sump that fails or the large sump. It would have to be a mammoth failure for the whole system to bite the dust. Also gives me a lot of options for future developments with the system. I think there is more potential for grief if I use closed loops in the main tanks. There is something that just bothers me about drilling holes in the bottom of tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 More things can go wrong but then who is better of, the person with the small sump that fails or the large sump i would say the person with the small sump, they both failed due to the lack of skilled husbandry and the person with the smaller sump spent less money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 the thing that doesnt register with me is the fact that you are all talking about size of the tank helping with stability. sure a four foot is easier to maintain than a 3 gallon desktop nano in a telecom office. oh wait no its not. i have had both and my desk top nano is by far the easiest care tank ive ever had (fresh water included) your planned 3 six feet tank will cost XX amount of dollars more to heat/light etc. more pumps needed and your stability is not going to be helped by the same percentage of effort money spent. good frequent 10 percent water changes will help far more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 There's not going to be any more lighting compared to a refugium unless he does put lights over one to be a grow out tank. Heating may be a bit more, but most of the year heating isn't much of a concern. There won't be more pumps because all of it looks to me like it's going to be gravity fed. He's not going to have 3 more 6 foot tanks. He's going to have 3 more large chambers in his sump. There isn't really much more maintenance required on a water container. And a 4 foot tank is definitely going to be MUCH more stable than a 3 gallon desktop nano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 The extra water in the large sump area is just "dead" water. It is not achieving anything by being there. You may or may not get longer between water changes. On the other hand, a 20% water change will need more water to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 Sure it is, it dampens any changes in water conditions. Takes longer for PH to drop, longer for nitrates to rise, longer for calcium to drop, longer for KH to drop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 Sure it is, it dampens any changes in water conditions. Takes longer for PH to drop, longer for nitrates to rise, longer for calcium to drop, longer for KH to drop... This highlights some of the problems. In fact it will not take longer for calcium and kh to drop, all else being equal they will still drop at the same rate as they precipitate, and that will mean so much more to replace. PH will also drop the same, reason being the extra water is going to be unlit and not productive in terms of eliminating any Co2 via photosynthesis. However nitrate buildup will be diluted by the larger water quantity. To me, a decent sized sump is a good thing to allow work & equipment room, but it is largely a fallacy that heaps of extra water is going to be a great benefit. The idea was popular many years ago when tanks were less stable and disasters more common. A big body of water was a buffer to lessen the impact of these problems. However nowadays it's less needed. If installing a big body of water just to "have" it, have to measure benefit against cost, and there will be a cost. That cost may have been able to be better utilised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 PH will also drop the same, reason being the extra water is going to be unlit and not productive in terms of eliminating any Co2 via photosynthesis. It gives you more area for airation which will help eliminate CO2 and decreases CO2 concentration by because you have heaps more water that isn't full of anything other than some stray pods that are producing CO2. Doubling the water volume does not double the CO2 production in the system unless you also double the amount of fish, corals, etc. In fact it will not take longer for calcium and kh to drop, all else being equal they will still drop at the same rate as they precipitate, and that will mean so much more to replace. You shouldn't have calcium precipitating out of the water, just what is being used by any livestock in which case the concentrations will drop slower with a larger water volume and you still only have to replace what your livestock are using. Adding more water volume in the sump is not going to increase the calcium usage of the system except for whatever handful of tubeworms and similar happen to start growing in the sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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