lduncan Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Here are some quotes re sandbeds: Nope, the argument is "how do you know that it's not going to stop working tomorrow"? They work great for a while, depending on how fast you fill them up. BTW where do people that have never run barebottom systems come up with all this vacuuming and siphoning?? I have a little pile, about 1/8 cup, that forms in the middle of this 10ft tank. I siphon it out about once a month or two. Set up right you don't have the sand bed competing with the filter feeding animals - and a substrate does do that, it has to - It has to become a trap. It won't work if it didn't. Supposedly demineralization takes place - it doesn't. That's a slow process that would not be able to keep up with the demands of a aquarium. But then that doesn't make phosphorus compounds disappear. It will store them and like you mentioned, Miracle Mud (throw it away when it's full), Anthony's sand bed in a bucket (throw it away when it's full, etc etc Why fool with something that you have no way of knowing if it's working right or not - until you start seeing problems with very expensive animals? When you can set the tank up from the get go to not store (nitrogen, phosphorus, etc compounds), but remove those compounds and not try to process/store them in the system and hope they stay benign. You can fix those problems to a certain extent. Look at the market for chemical based phosphate removers - but they don't just remove phosphate - they also add things (Al, Fe) to the system that can also cause big problems. or you can just set the system up to remove those things from the get go Well no. The highest demand placed on the entire system is the DSB. Uses the most O2, produces the most CO2, produces the most acids, and consumes the most carbon/buffer, etc etc It's a big living thing. When you set a tank up to run BB, you set it up with enough flow to get the crud to the overflow - to the skimmer - and get it out of the system. If you had sand with that much flow you would have that ever popular suspended sand look. If a DSB stops working, it changes the dynamics of the sediment. It leaks phosphate, it wicks phosphate up and into any rocks, etc etc chemically, organically, etc bound and you have to wait for it to change to a water soluble form in order to be taken up with water borne bacteria and phyto, in order for it to be skimmed out. (think - I have severe hair algae problems but my water tests 0 for P) Probably the best one: If you use a DSB, you should know what it does. If you use a SSB, you should know what it does. If you go BB, you should know what it does. There's just not much to point out about BB systems. Either you keep them clean or you have problems. It's that simple. But you can SEE if a BB system is clean just by looking - no surprises. Not trying to "convert" anyone. It just makes you think though. There are many means to an end, but some are more logical, easier and less risky than others. If I was advising someone who is setting up a new tank, I wouldn't advise using a DSB. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 and: I've noticed that the DSB "experts" are mostly scrambling and coming up with everything in this world. Does anyone remember about 5-6 years ago, when the experts were preaching that a DSB was all you needed - and skimmerless tanks were all the rage? and if it didn't work - IT WAS YOUR FAULT Then they added a algae filter. Then they added chemical phosphate removers. Then they added less fish. Then they added a microscope and classes to teach you how to count sand bed critters. Then they added more flow and heavy skimming to make them work. ....now they are remote and in a bucket so when the sand bed goes bad you can change/dump it without destroying your whole tank. ROTFL I'm sorry but this is just getting way too funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 If I was advising someone who is setting up a new tank, I wouldn't advise using a DSB. I would We could go back and forth forever quoting things found on the net from one source or another, neither of us will definitivly prove the other wrong. I think a DSB is an asset, infact I am so confident I have 2 in my system. Still maybee i'll get home and its all come crashing to an end, but I suspect i'll be OK Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 meh doesn't bother me. But just reading this stuff recently it's simple, and makes more sense too me than setting up a DSB from the get go. I just found it an interesting point of view. Its even more interesting when you see the processes going on in your tank. Just some food for thought. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Yup, no doubt. I have done a lot of reading prior to setting up my new tank. The more I read, the more appealing the DSB is for the type of tank I want keep. I am aware of the risk of the DSB crashing, but its managable and easily avoidable. The Auckland club had a DVD presentation on sand beds recently, be interesting to know what the 'real' experts had to say. YMMV. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 I am aware of the risk of the DSB crashing, but its managable and easily avoidable can you explain how its avoidable, i have room for movement in my setup and would like to know which option would be best under a highly stocked tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 The Auckland club had a DVD presentation on sand beds recently, be interesting to know what the 'real' experts had to say. This info is all from a "real" expert. Bomber on RC. Works for NOAA in the Florida keys, mainly in reef reconstruction. Been in the hobby for 50+ years. The quotes above come from here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... genumber=1 He's not a fan of what the DSB "experts" have to say, because it's just plain wrong. (People like Dr Ron, Eric Borneman and others). The thread posted earlier has all the evidence under the sun showing that. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Bomber has some hatred though. Ever get the feeling like he is a little extreme and is on a real crusade against DSBs? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Bomber has some hatred though. Ever get the feeling like he is a little extreme and is on a real crusade against DSBs? Pie Bomber does has that "hatred" by some. Mainly because his approach is not to tell people how things work, but to throw enough hints in the right direction, so that through your own work/research, you discover how things work. Which, in my opinion, can be a more valuable way of learning things, it gives you a deeper understanding. Some people can't handle this. Also, he's not on a crusade to rid the world of DSB's. Different animals require different methods. For example a soft coral tank may be indifferent to fluxes which happen in DSB systems. He doesn't subscribe to a BB for every tank approach. I don't see what is so extreme about him? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Just seems to have a single focus is all I am saying, has made his mind up and thats that. Interesting to see all the BB tanks he sites as proof of its success, but to me they look no better than tanks with DSBs. The BB tanks do like odd though, maybee they look better IRL than in the photos. Aestheticly they looks ugly. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Interesting to see all the BB tanks he sites as proof of its success, but to me they look no better than tanks with DSBs. i think he knows better than to prove something by example ;-) True there are some average looking BB tanks, just like there are some average looking dsb tanks. I'm more interested in the methodology rather than aesthetics. You can follow the bare bottom methodology, while still having sand. Similar to what Steve Weast does, vacuum the sand and continually replace it to keep it from acting like a sand bed. IE keep the sand free of accumulated detritus. It's just easier to tell how clean the tank is without having sand there. I guess the focus is on removing the crap, rather than sweeping it under the carpet. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEOvitANZ Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but Steve Tyree has written a book on keeping a skimmer less tank. He rely's on natural sponges, sea squirts etc to filter the water. He has had good success doing this. Brendan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 interesting, might have to look for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 He rely's on natural sponges, sea squirts etc to filter the water. The thing is though, that they don't just absorb everything. They create waste themselves, maybe in a different form, but it's still waste. What happens to that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEOvitANZ Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Yeah, not sure Layton. I don't think he has many fish in the system as well. Very experimental at the moment. Brendan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 I'm still waiting for someone to show me a proven example where the addition of iron alone has coloured up sps. It has been achieved by the use of rowaphos, but that can be attributed to the lowering of nutrient levels. Must have missed this. It could be both. The papers I have seen show that an increase in iron can result in loss of zooxanthellae. Loss off zooxanthellae can result in the appearance of corals "colouring up". But coral can readapt to a certain extent to these elevated levels. But then there is the phosphate binding side of rowaphos. The water may test undetectable for phosphate, with great coral colour, but the rocks and sand may be full of phosphate, hence the algae growth. The problem with rock which contains high phosphate is that the phosphate makes it's way into coral skeletons which are attached to it. It makes for a nice environment for boring alages to attack a coral. This may be one of the reasons for so called "STN" which usually starts at the base of corals. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 They create waste themselves, maybe in a different form, but it's still waste. What happens to that? It gets skimmed out. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Isn't the idea to create a skimmerless tank though, using sponges for filtration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBlog Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 The problem with rock which contains high phosphate is that the phosphate makes it's way into coral skeletons which are attached to it. It makes for a nice environment for boring alages to attack a coral. This may be one of the reasons for so called "STN" which usually starts at the base of corals. Layton This has been my problem unfortunately. I broke open a couple of my STNed corals and sure enough, there was a green core. :evil: I get the zero readings on my test kits, but know my damn rocks are quite full and releasing/sheading slowly, and thus algae blooms (minor scale) from time to time. :evil: It's just way too much of a PITA to "cook" them for a couple months outside the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 I have had a few corals targeted by STN as well. I have always assumed it was a bacterial infection (as per Bourneman). I can easily stop the STN by using aquakneedit at the base of the 'infection'. This has saved the coral every time its happened (maybee 3-4 times now). No other corals effected. I too have 0 Phosphate and Nitrates on the tests. I use phosphate remover (1x box) at a time, and change it every 6 months-ish. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaymann Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Putting the gear shift in reverse and getting back to the original post and link .. those snowflake clowns .. wtf are they , a morph , hybrid ?? and are they available over here ?? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 I think they are just mis-bared percs or ocellaris. Places like ORA (an aquaculture facility in the sates) often have a few mis-bared clowns in there hatches. It's like guppy genetic variations, but with clowns. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaymann Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Cheers for that info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted October 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=683501 quite a nice little tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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