lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Sand beds/plenums, calurpa and o2 exchange can release phosphates. Yip straight back into the water... just where you don't want it. It never leaves the tank. Sandbeds (live) also consume detritus with all the live animals etc living in them including bacterria. So your increasing the bioload, which leads to one thing... more waste. Not sure that a sandbed is dirty (I have no love for the mud, but have respect for its results). Sandbeds collect crap... they are dirty by design. Lots and lots of tanks out there with SPS and sandbeds that are stunners. Again results speak volumes. Sure, but that only lasts for so long. They are good at doing what they do... storing nutrients. Once they are full, it's back into the tank. Why not remove the crap before it breaks down and causes problems? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Yip straight back into the water... just where you don't want it. It never leaves the tank. How does harvisting calurpa and gas exchange of phosphate end up back in the tank? You know when you harvest the calurpa you throw it out, right? So your increasing the bioload, which leads to one thing... more waste. If that was correct than you would also remove your LR for the same reasons. Layton - You seem to be paranoid that the sandbed is just a big sponge, and as soon as its full it will just all melt back into the water. the reality is this is not what happens. Worst case is it may become 'full' and not be able to do any more, it doesn't hit saturation and just explode into badness. I have had my sandbed running over 2.5 years, and I expect it to still be up and running and working in another 2.5 years. but you seem to have your mind made up. If all of what you are saying is true, why so many successful tanks running? Why don't tanks employing your ideas (like your own) look so much better than the dirty DSB tanks? DSBs work, like it or not, the proof is in the success of the people who employ them. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 How does harvisting calurpa and gas exchange of phosphate end up back in the tank? You know when you harvest the calurpa you throw it out, right? Calurpa only removes specific forms of phosphate. It's not going to remove everything you need it to. Explain gas exchange of phosphate? If that was correct than you would also remove your LR for the same reasons. Nope. LR doesn't collect crap the same way a sandbed does. Layton - You seem to be paranoid that the sandbed is just a big sponge, and as soon as its full it will just all melt back into the water. the reality is this is not what happens. Worst case is it may become 'full' and not be able to do any more, it doesn't hit saturation and just explode into badness. I have had my sandbed running over 2.5 years, and I expect it to still be up and running and working in another 2.5 years. It's not paranoia, it's just what they do. It is very well documented. (also they don't need to "explode" to cause problems.) If all of what you are saying is true, why so many successful tanks running? Why don't tanks employing your ideas (like your own) look so much better than the dirty DSB tanks? Because sand beds work. DSBs work, like it or not, the proof is in the success of the people who employ them. They sure do work. But they have a major flaw, which means they don't work indefinitely... and there is know way of really knowing how long they will work, could be several months, could be several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Just to show what I was saying earlier about the tank posted showing signs of unusually high nutrients. This photo is one of many on there which illustrate the point well: The circled area highlights the growth of algae. It indicates that the rock contains high levels of phosphate. These signs are used as indicators of wild reef health. When this happens it usually means the reef is in trouble. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 as in the slight covering of hair algae on the rock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 No, the significant covering of algae on most of the rock surfaces. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Every reef i've dived in the world must be in trouble then, cause thats what rock looks like under water. Significient covering? Did you upload the wrong picture? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Yes that is a significant covering. I'd be worried if the rock in my tank had that sort of covering. Here is another picture which illustrates it. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 The processes which go on in sandbeds is well documented here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... t=Journals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 I think there are more people skimless than what we think. You can’t seriously class via aqua ,wei pro etc as skimmers anyway .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted August 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 My tank must be in trouble then because thats how it looks. Infact if that algae growth shows rocks saturated with phosphate then my glass must be suffering from the same problem. Both pics looks pretty normal to me. The first pic has no corraline algae, which is when you get algae growth. I've seen this in my tank, coraline stops the other algaes from taking hold. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 If the rock in my tank looked like that, i'd be doing something about it. It really isn't a good sign. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 The rock does show high nutrients. I notice that when my nutrients go up the rocks start to get a brown like colour or sort of dirty look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 It really isn't a good sign. I take the health of my animals and the colour and growth rate of my corals as indicators of good health, not the algae on my rocks. If a snail had zoomed over that rock a few minutes earlier would you have been saying 'wow great rock, its a good sign'? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 I take the health of my animals and the colour and growth rate of my corals as indicators of good health, not the algae on my rocks. If a snail had zoomed over that rock a few minutes earlier would you have been saying 'wow great rock, its a good sign'? That would be more difficult to say (although in this case it appears much of the tank is like that). Just like it is entirely possible that judging health by colour and growth can be misleading. Can't forget polyp extension as a measure of coral "happyness" too. Sure all those things CAN be good signs. But the also occur when a coral is not is such good shape. Same visible response, very different cause. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 IMO it is a high nutrient tank, or at least high for sps. In addition to what Layton pointed out, the absence of coraline, and dead coraline, indicate high phosphate, regardless of what his kit tells him. His sandsifting goby is looking pretty fat also. What has me puzzled though is the seeming good health of his sps. He does not really give enough info as to his management, for example how much caulerpa he is pulling, if he is taking heaps, that can in large part make up for the lack of a skimmer. Miracle Mud also advise the use of a decent amount of carbon, and some of it's users use phosphate removing media also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 What has me puzzled though is the seeming good health of his sps. You mean the colour? Rowaphos Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 You mean the colour? Rowaphos ? If there was truth to that everyone here that is using ROWA would have have stunning coral colour. A few people posted pics of how 'awesome' it was and after just days their corals had changed colour (and posted a pic of a brown coral), but no photos or info from anyone recently. I wounder why that is. That tank is a stunner, and if I could get my tank looking half as nice I would be impressed. As for its health, look at the growth since it was setup. Hard to critisise it, unless good colour and growth mean his animals are un-happy, and continue to remain unhappy and just appear to be doing well by showing awesome colour and great growth rates. Look at his tank, look at your own. Whos methodology works? Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 ? If there was truth to that everyone here that is using ROWA would have have stunning coral colour. A few people posted pics of how 'awesome' it was and after just days their corals had changed colour (and posted a pic of a brown coral), but no photos or info from anyone recently. I wounder why that is. That's the nature of iron, what is does and how it works. It doesn't just bind phosphate. That tank is a stunner, and if I could get my tank looking half as nice I would be impressed. As for its health, look at the growth since it was setup. Hard to critisise it, unless good colour and growth mean his animals are un-happy, and continue to remain unhappy and just appear to be doing well by showing awesome colour and great growth rates. Look at his tank, look at your own. Whos methodology works? Looking at photo's of your tank, I'd say it is much more impressive than the link you posted. Just because a method seems to work, doesn't mean it's not heading for trouble. Skimmerless systems using dsb filters are just not viable for sps long term. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted August 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 i stoped using rowa after about three weeks, i dont have an effective place to put it. Chimera lets see some new pics of your tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Looking at photo's of your tank, I'd say it is much more impressive than the link you posted. Very flattering thanks. The reality is my tank photographs better than it looks. You know how sometimes the photo doesn't do the subject justice? Mine is the opposite. I don't dissagree with the general 'flavor' of what is being said. Its just the results don't match. Its easy to say 'its heading for trouble', and only time will tell I guess, but people who uses these systems are not naieve (sp?) to what happens in there own systems, and none of them think its going to be a problem. And I can't keep comming back to the results. As for skimmerless, said this many times, I can't image doing it myself. I see so much brown shite comming out of the skimmer, I don't want it staying in my tank. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 I'm still waiting for someone to show me a proven example where the addition of iron alone has coloured up sps. It has been achieved by the use of rowaphos, but that can be attributed to the lowering of nutrient levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Skimmerless systems using dsb filters are just not viable for sps long term. What's stopping someone from simply replacing all the sand in their sump ever couple years? Here in NZ it would be a bit expensive, but not excessively. Or even replacing half of their DSB every year or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 IRA - Its a good point. I guess it depends on if you belive the DSB will 'fill up' or not. I think the older the sandbed the better. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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