Need Help With Weird Cycling Levels!!!

[RunningWithScissors]

Hey guys, I'm in a bit of a dilemma.

So, I've been cycling a tank and I have some really weird readings.

I've been adding fish food to the tank ( four or five decent sized flakes every day) for about two weeks ago. I got some seed material from a friends tank about a week ago.

The water I tested just now was no ammonia, no nitrite and no nitrate. So everything I thought was;

-It's impossible for me to have been adding food for two weeks and no ammonia be present so the bacteria must be using it.

- I never detected nitrites before, so either they where never present, or the seed material speeded up the cycle so fast that I never saw the spike before it was processed by the second lot of bacteria.

-I do have live plants so it is possible they are absorbing all the nitrate?

What do you think? I REALLY need some help!

[JJWooble]

Its possible that whatever nitrates were produced were consumed by the plants-- try feeding a larger amount of fish food for a few days to see what happens?

[RunningWithScissors]

I might try that. Thanks! 

[Shilo]

Problem with using fish food etc is that you have little control on how much ammonia is produced and thus how fast the bacteria is converting it.  What you could do is to use cheap household ammonia, dose the tank to 3ppm and measure it over the next few days to see how fast its converting to Nitrites and then Nitrates.  If 3ppm converts all the way to Nitrates in 24 hours you are good to go and add fish.

How much ammonia to add depends on how many litres you have in your tank.  Use this calculator to work it out: http://www.fishforums.net/aquarium-calculator.htm (bottom of page). So long as the ammonia is the cheap stuff from the supermarket that doesn't have any other added ingredients like detergents it will work. 

[RunningWithScissors]

Hi! Thanks again!

How do you find pure ammonia? Is it labeled as ammonia or something else?

[Shilo]

Yup,  normally cloudy ammonia.  It will be in the cleaning supplies isle of your local supermarket like this: https://shop.countdown.co.nz/Shop/SearchProducts?search=ammonia#url=/Shop/ProductDetails%3FStockcode%3D18229%26name%3Dhomebrand-liquid-cleaner-cloudy-ammonia%26search%3Dammonia

Using cleaning ammonia is another way of doing the fishless cycle, no fish food just keeping topping up to keep the levels at 3ppm.  Once the bacteria gobble it up within 24hrs the tank is ready for the fish. In your case I reckon it can be used as an easy check that the tank is cycled or not.

[RunningWithScissors]

Awesome! I'll get some as soon as I can!

[alanmin4304]

Why would you want to put detergent in to your aquarium. It is the detergent and whatever else is in there that makes it cloudy. I cannot see how that is better for the fish than adding a fish or two and cycling the tank naturally like grandad used to do. Everyone to their own I guess. I have kept and bred thousands of fish and have never artificially cycled a tank yet.

[Shilo]

No fish in the tank and the amount of soap in cloudy ammonia used at 3ppm is so minimal it won't effect anything. A water change at the end of the cycling (which should be done anyway) will take care of any residue.  Did a lot of research on it when building my tank and nobody that used it had problems from the soap additive.  What you don't want is the brand name cleaning products where ammonium hydroxide is an added ingredient to a whole lot of other chemicals.

On the con side of just slowly adding fish is that it can stress the fish each time you add one until the bacteria numbers grow to cope with the increase of ammonia they produce. The bacteria numbers will only increase by the amount of food (ammonia) available.  So each new fish means there is an increase in ammonia until the bacteria population increases to cope with it. The amount of ammonia is probably not enough to cause damage if only small fish are used but its there. The advantage of fishless cycling is that once done you can introduce a full stock of fish at once, everything is ready to cope with the waste produced.  

[alanmin4304]

Fishless cycling is a con job produced by people that want to sell products. If you add a couple of hardy fish such as zebra danios and do regular water changes they will be perfectly OK. No one knows how many flakes of food or dead shrimps produce the same ammonia as the fish you are going to add so the balance is not a balance at all and far more stress is produced when the fish are added. I used to breed 50000 fish a year and have imported fish and I have never done a fishless cycle and never had a problem either. The more fish you add, the more water changes you do. There is an equilibrium between  ammonium (harmless) and ammonia (harmful) which is related to pH and is diluted by water changes. I used to add over 1000 baby angels a few days old to an uncycled 50 litre tank and never had a problem. I fail to see how the cleaning agents in cloudy ammonia regardless of dilution can be better for the fish than water changes. Everyone to their own.

 

[livingart]

How much bacteria is produced at 3ppm of cloudy ammonia and how many fish of what size and species will that equate to to introduce once tank has cycled using that method.

 

[Shilo]

Yes there are other ways like different ways of cycling a tank and each has their pros and cons.  Using Ammonia, Using rotting food, Slow addition of fish, Using bacteria in a bottle and so on.  If it is to be debated then maybe a different thread?

The fact is Runningwithscissors is already cycling her tank with food.  Her problem as above is measuring the speed the ammonia & nitrites are being converted and by adding a known amount of ammonia then measuring after 24 hours she will know if her tanks cycled.  Hard to do with food as she doesn't know how much ammonia is being formed.

Livingart:  The 3ppm is used because it is the optimum amount the bacteria seem to be able to process at a time (been revised from 5ppm).  Any more and the bacteria growth slows down (poisoning?), less and the full potential won't be reached.  The theory is that once the ammonia is converted within 24hrs then the bacteria population has covered available surfaces of the media the same as in a fully stocked tank.  How many fish depends on the size of the tank - a 100gal tank will have more bacteria then a 10gal and more ammonia has to be added even though the concentration is still 3ppm for both.

[alanmin4304]

Have you taken in to account that if you make the media loaded to the maximum then when you add a number of fish that produce less waste than those bacteria require for food then they will die and produce an excess of waste products including ammonia and that will not be good for your fish until the correct balance is actually established. You don't have to be a mathematical genius to realise that two danios will produce the amount of waste that two danios will produce. With experience you can tell if fish are stressed or not. If in doubt do a water change.

 

 

 

 

[alanmin4304]

I think a lot of the problems today are caused by people wanting instant gratification and they kid themselves by getting a tank to the point where they can dump all the fish they want in to a tank then they will have said gratification. This will probably take as long as adding fish slowly. You can actually add all the fish at once if you do enough water changes and I will bet a dollar to a proverbial that the fish will be better off than swimming in detergent regardless of the concentration. As you said there is more than one way to cycle a tank and each to their own. I have finished my rave and will now let you continue to advise on cycling.

Edited December 13, 2015 by alanmin4304

[Shilo]

Drat, now have to clean the blood stains of the brick wall from banging my head.

"You can actually add all the fish at once if you do enough water changes and I will bet a dollar to a proverbial that the fish will be better off than swimming in detergent regardless of the concentration"  Which is why it is called a FISHLESS cycle - there is no fish to swim in it.  Water changes are still done when using ammonia and the speed of setting up the tank is the same fishless or with fish.  Only seeding with matured media speeds things up (which I think the OP has done, thus 2 weeks instead of 2 months).

Apart from pointing out a con of fish addition to cycle I have not said fishless cycling using ammonia is the best way.  It all depends on the individuals requirements and tank set up, planned fish what is best for them.  

But the OP was not asking for advice on the best way to cycle, she was wanting advise on whether or not her tank has cycled.  I just advised a way for her to do that (checking with an ammonia dose), your advice to her is?

 

[RunningWithScissors]

Thanks Shilo. I think I'm still going to go with the cloudy ammonia to check on whether it is in fact cycled, as from what you said the detergent levels are next to none, and I was planning on doing a staggered introduction anyhow, but species by species instead of specimen by specimen. I do think that 'artificially' cycling it is probably a lot less messy then using fish food, and quite honestly, even though I'm putting zebra danios in there, I'd rather be on the safe side and cycle before hand. I my opinion (and hey I could be wrong) exposing fish unnecessarily to toxins like ammonia is not good, as it might not kill them but certainly make them more stressed and more susceptible to disease. It many be a different story in a breeding operation where there are just too many tanks for it to be a plausible option, but this is my only tank and I have the time and the will to spend on it and do it this way. 

I also think that not doing a fishless cycle could be a scam by stores. If they don't tell you and your fish die, of course you are likely to come back and by another one, generating extra revenue. Despite this, some of the products that claim to help cycle are also a complete rip off. (unfortunately I know from experience as I used these when I trying to cycle a small tank a few months ago) 

Edited December 13, 2015 by RunningWithScissors

[Shilo]

When you add fish just remember that only adding a few fish in a fully cycled tank will mean the bacteria in your filter will die off until it reaches the limit of ammonia that those few fish produce.  If you then add a few more fish to the system later on then there will be a spike in ammonia until the bacteria catch up again.  

IMHO that if 3ppm ammonia disappears in 24 hours and the nitrites are also 0 then 100% water change and add all the zebra danios at once.  For the next species add one fish at a time keeping an eye on the ammonia & nitrites each time.  A combination of fishless and fish addition cycling.

[RunningWithScissors]

Ok, I was going to add my four Corys first but it sounds like the danios are better first to keep bacteria levels up! Again thanks so so much for the help! I'll post again after I've tested the water 24 hours after adding ammonia. Just a note, if the food is only producing a tiny amount of ammonia, am I better to add 1ppm for a start and build up to 3 as not to overwhelm them, or won't it matter?

[fishyNZ]

What are your temperature and pH readings? Ammonia is more concentrated with higher temperatures and pH (alkaline).

Edited December 14, 2015 by fishyNZ

[RunningWithScissors]

Its 26C and the PH is 7.4

[fishyNZ]

try ramping up to 29C.

[RunningWithScissors]

Sounds good, I'll try that. Will bring it back down suddenly to add fish slow down the bacteria or not?

[fishyNZ]

The elevated temperature is just to aid bacteria growth.  Once the tank is cycled, you don't need additional bacteria.

[RunningWithScissors]

Ok thanks.