Interested in setting up Native NZ Biotope.

[blondfish]

Hi all,

I'm interested in setting up a native biotope and have some questions....

First of all...what size tank should I be looking at?

I would like some Bullys, are there any other fish I would be able to have that are top-middle dwelling?

What would I feed?

With waterchanges...is it alright to use dechlorinated tap water or would it be better to use the river water?

Would the decorations all have to be from the river? i.e stones, drifwood, gravel/sand etc.

What size filter? i.e do they like fast or slow flow, how many litres per hour?

What plants could I have and what lighting would I need?

That's all the questions I have ATM and any help would be much appreciated. :thup:

[disgustipated]

when keeping nz native tanks the main issue which will be presented to you is keeping the temperature down.

during winter it will be okay. but come summer, tanks tend to get too hot for nz natives.

[blondfish]

when keeping nz native tanks the main issue which will be presented to you is keeping the temperature down.

during winter it will be okay. but come summer, tanks tend to get too hot for nz natives.

:-? So is there anyway to help keep the water cool during the summer?

[blueether]

Random thoughts in no real order:

Have you had a look at my 430L tank in my sig, many of Stella's threads, and twinkles native tank?

There is a bit, but not much, of info on some of our native plants here: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=63546

As disgustipated has said the hardest thing about native temperate aquariums is keeping them cool over summer. The more lights, pumps, filters etc the hotter the the tank will get. You can get some good cooling via adding bottles of ice and or a desk fan pointing at the water surface, the next step is an expensive chiller.

I'll tackle stock first. In the bay you have a good selection to choose from. Banded kokopu and inanga make for good mid/top water swimmers. Smelt are another choice but can be problematic in the first 24h and can startle easily there whole life - in saying that the ones I have at the moment are good. Bottom dwellers are bullies and torrentfish. In the bay you have common and redfin bullies, both make good tank mates and adapt well. Torrentfish, as the name implies, like fast flowing water but make great tank fish after they learn to feed on non-live foods. Koaro can make good tank fish from what I've heard although they like more flow.

Size of the tank will depend on what you want to keep. If you only want bullies and inanga you could just get away with a 2ft tank, but 3ft would be better. If you wanted to have any of the large Galaxiids (giant kokopu, banded kokopu and koaro) I would say a 4ft x 2ft would be needed to allow them room to grow.

Bullies will grow to to about 100mm or more and live for 3 or more years

Smelt will get to about 90+mm and may live for 2 or 3 years but 1 is normal

Inanga will grow to over 100mm and may live for 2 or 3 years but 1 is normal

Banded kokopu and koaro will grow to 200-250mm and may live for 5+ years?

Giant kokopu will get to 300-400mm or more and may live for over 10 years?

For food I use good granules, NLS and Nutrafin, beef heart and live food.

Lighting, well I just have have a 24w compact fluro, some times two on a 4ft x2 ft. I don't try and grow plants, just moss so I don't need strong lighting.

For water changes I just use tap water and only use dechlorinator if there has been heavy rain as more chlorine is added. Smelt are sensitive to chlorine, but koura might be sensitive to dechlorinators.

For flow in the tank it all depends on what you will stock it with. The 1200 l/h filter and the 3500 l/h in my 430L point from the surface towards the bottom of the tank along the back wall with the intakes in the middle. I also have a 5000-15000 l/h wavemaker pointed across the bottom for the bullies and torrent fish to play in, and another 5000 l/h wavemaker at the other end of the tank to keep the other front corner free of crud. This means I have a lot of flow but I don't feel that it is too much in the top 1/3 for the kokopu in there.

I hope that this all helps.

[disgustipated]

:gopo:

[wonka]

feeding the fish is sometimes difficult, my giantbully can be really frustrating.

the shrimps and prawns in the supermarket are usually taken, mealworms too.

removing uneaten food is an ongoing chore.

no way will it eat dried consumer type fish food.

i use straight up tapwater from the garden hose. no more than 50% change.

get a thermometer, and keep an eye on the temperature. it will surprise you.

[Dr A]

You could use a peltier to cool small tanks, would be cheaper than an a expensive chiller. I bet people have built cheap setups with small fridges or air conditioners.

[M@.]

You could use a peltier to cool small tanks

Now thats an interesting idea, anyone tried this before?

[wonka]

what is a peltier?

heya blondfish, how long have you been keeping fish?

in the beginning, a lot of good fish died by my failings.

[M@.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect

Ill admit, I had to look it up

range from $8.50 - $35 on TradeMe

[Dr A]

Now thats an interesting idea, anyone tried this before?

Seems as though they have. Mostly by nano reef builders it seems.

[M@.]

Sorry, need to stop the passing comment thing :smot: feel like I might get told off for thread jacking soon

Research!

http://www.shine7.com/aquarium/chiller.htm

[wonka]

noisey little sucker. wouldnt put up with that for too long!

keeping the water cool is the biggest problem with the native fish.

they prefer a temp wich we find uncomfortably cold.

even a room temp tank really is a bit to warm for them.

i get away with it, by utilising a low stocking rate, adequate filtratration, and vigorous aeration.

hope this helps. is there a thread on chillers anywhere guys?

[wonka]

wow. his DIY skills are right up there!

[blondfish]

what is a peltier?

heya blondfish, how long have you been keeping fish?

in the beginning, a lot of good fish died by my failings.

I have been keeping fish for about 3-4 years though about 1 of those was trying to keep 3 goldfish in a 21 Litre. (Not a good idea and I regret taking the pet shop staff's advice that they would work).

I then stopped for about a year and then got back into it about 2 years ago and until recently I was pretty much neglecting my danio's who are in the original 21 litre (again I took advice from the pet shop staff), I'm upgrading my tank soon for the Danio's so they can actually have a good life lol. (I'm just waiting till I get home from a trip to Aussie in the near future before I begin cycling my tank).

So, now I'm into fish keeping and doing my research before hand. I like a challenge and hopefully this Native tank will be that challenge that I can succeed well in without losing to many fish. (I plan to take good care of them and I hope my previous experiences won't make you think that I'm a bad fish keeper because they were only because I didn't do my research).

Random thoughts in no real order:

Have you had a look at my 430L tank in my sig, many of Stella's threads, and twinkles native tank?

There is a bit, but not much, of info on some of our native plants here: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=63546

As disgustipated has said the hardest thing about native temperate aquariums is keeping them cool over summer. The more lights, pumps, filters etc the hotter the the tank will get. You can get some good cooling via adding bottles of ice and or a desk fan pointing at the water surface, the next step is an expensive chiller.

I'll tackle stock first. In the bay you have a good selection to choose from. Banded kokopu and inanga make for good mid/top water swimmers. Smelt are another choice but can be problematic in the first 24h and can startle easily there whole life - in saying that the ones I have at the moment are good. Bottom dwellers are bullies and torrentfish. In the bay you have common and redfin bullies, both make good tank mates and adapt well. Torrentfish, as the name implies, like fast flowing water but make great tank fish after they learn to feed on non-live foods. Koaro can make good tank fish from what I've heard although they like more flow.

Size of the tank will depend on what you want to keep. If you only want bullies and inanga you could just get away with a 2ft tank, but 3ft would be better. If you wanted to have any of the large Galaxiids (giant kokopu, banded kokopu and koaro) I would say a 4ft x 2ft would be needed to allow them room to grow.

Bullies will grow to to about 100mm or more and live for 3 or more years

Smelt will get to about 90+mm and may live for 2 or 3 years but 1 is normal

Inanga will grow to over 100mm and may live for 2 or 3 years but 1 is normal

Banded kokopu and koaro will grow to 200-250mm and may live for 5+ years?

Giant kokopu will get to 300-400mm or more and may live for over 10 years?

For food I use good granules, NLS and Nutrafin, beef heart and live food.

Lighting, well I just have have a 24w compact fluro, some times two on a 4ft x2 ft. I don't try and grow plants, just moss so I don't need strong lighting.

For water changes I just use tap water and only use dechlorinator if there has been heavy rain as more chlorine is added. Smelt are sensitive to chlorine, but koura might be sensitive to dechlorinators.

For flow in the tank it all depends on what you will stock it with. The 1200 l/h filter and the 3500 l/h in my 430L point from the surface towards the bottom of the tank along the back wall with the intakes in the middle. I also have a 5000-15000 l/h wavemaker pointed across the bottom for the bullies and torrent fish to play in, and another 5000 l/h wavemaker at the other end of the tank to keep the other front corner free of crud. This means I have a lot of flow but I don't feel that it is too much in the top 1/3 for the kokopu in there.

I hope that this all helps.

That was very helpful thank you.

You were saying about not adding dechlorinater....doesn't chlorine kill the "good" bacteria that you establish by cycling the tank so ammonia is made into nitrite and the nitrite into nitrate?

The Inanga and Bully's sound good and I would also like some shrimp. How many of each could I keep and could the common and red fin Bully's be mixed?

I did the research and I like the Blue Planet HPLED Vista tank. Would that be good for the above fish?

With the Inanga...would it be best to catch them in the white bait season as they're still young?

I will probably use the frozen bottles of water.

I'll have a look at the food when I'm next at my LFS.

Thank you all for your help so far.

[M@.]

Chlorine is supposedly very unstable in water, so for my natives I leave the water I am going to use in a bucket for a day or two.

no problems so far!

you can keep common and red fins together, will let someone else speculate on numbers, but I would say 3-4 in a tank that size wouldn't be a problem

I personaly would lean towards getting the Inanga as whitebait, so they settle in better, less envirionmental impact etc

[blueether]

That was very helpful thank you.

no problems

You were saying about not adding dechlorinater....doesn't chlorine kill the "good" bacteria that you establish by cycling the tank so ammonia is made into nitrite and the nitrite into nitrate?

Yes chlorine will kill off some of them, but hopefully not all. I have tested the day after 30-50% water changes and not seen a spike in ammonia.

The Inanga and Bully's sound good and I would also like some shrimp. How many of each could I keep and could the common and red fin Bully's be mixed?

I did the research and I like the Blue Planet HPLED Vista tank. Would that be good for the above fish?

I would think that that would be a good sized tank for bullies and inanga, it is quite tall though. If you have a tall bit of driftwood up say 2/3 of the tank the bullies will use that to perch on and will draw them off the bottom of the tank.

With the Inanga...would it be best to catch them in the white bait season as they're still young?

Yes it would be the best time to get them as M@. said, and you might even end up with a suprise kokopu

I will probably use the frozen bottles of water.

at 160L it might be getting to the large end of what you can cool with ice, but give it a try. I struggled to my~50L native setup below 20 deg C with ice, and I could maintain about 21 for most of the time on the 430L using a 18" desk fan directly above one end of the tank pointing at the water. With the chiller I have it sitting at 17-18 all summer

I'll have a look at the food when I'm next at my LFS.

Thank you all for your help so far.

As wonka said it can be hard to get some fish to eat commercial foods. Good water management is a must if you feed beef (ox) heart.

[blondfish]

Is that a Kokopu in your profile pic blueether?

I really want to get this started now lol, just hope we hurry up and move (I will have to wait until I move house till I can get it started) :cry1:

Hopefully I will be able to find some good Driftwood either down by the river or at the garden centre/fish and parrot shop (Carine)

Am I right that the Bully's like lots of rocks in their tank? Or do they prefer just a few.

What substrate would be alright for them? Could I use normal sand or the river mud/sand stuff?

Should I have some moss in my tank for the shrimp (Providing I can find some) and would Java Moss be alright?

[blueether]

My profile pic is a giant kokopu, I'm lucky enough to have a good population of giant and shortjaw kokopu within about 10km of my olds place. One creek I looked in had some 12 of more giants within about 100m.

For good driftwood take a walk along the Mount/papamoa after a food storm, should throw something or two up.

Bullies do like rocks and caves and males will clam rocks for nests when they want to spawn (most of the spring/summer), so a good anount of rock caves or ones from wood.

I have used black west cost sand, river sand and at the moment I'm using coarse gravel/small stones as a substrate - so I guess anything bigger than fine sand :dunno:

Shrimp will need something to hide in and java moss would be ideal, but one you have it in a tank it can be hard to get rid of.

HTH

[blondfish]

With using the driftwood from the mount/papamoa, won't the sea water affect the wood? I know you have to soak them but would it get all the salt out and be safe for my tank?

You said earlier I might be able to catch a kokopu, are they schooling fish?

[alanmin4304]

Copied from a previous post & edited:

When you add chlorine to water you get hypochlorous acid which reacts with nitrogen compounds like ammonia,urea and the amines (in all proteins) and forms monochloramine. When you add more chlorine you get dichloramine and even more you get trichloramine. All these (and other reactions) form part of the "chlorine demand" in the water. You cannot get free available chlorine until this "chlorine demand" is satisfied. Therefore when the reaction is pushed towards trichloramine there will be virtually no monochloramine present. In some states in the US they treat the water with monochloramine (made by reacting chlorine with ammonia) because chlorine will react with other impurities in the water and form some compounds that are not so nice (such as acetone) where as monochloramine will not. Monochloramine is not as effective in treating water as chlorine which is used in NZ but is still a strong oxidising agent.

When people complain that the chlorine in a swimming pool is too strong and it is burning their eyes the problem usually is that the free available chlorine has been used up by contaminants in the water (such as urea) and this has pushed the chloramines back towards the monochloramine and this is what is burning their eyes. The problem is fixed by adding more chlorine.

When you allow water to stand or aerate it to get rid of the chlorine the chloramines all move back to monochloramine and this will react with your fish the same as an under chlorinated swimming pool will with your eyes.

Chlorine and all chloramines can be converted to more harmless chemicals with the addition of sodium thiosulphate which is the active ingredient you are buying from the petshop with dechlorinating products.

Drinking water will contain various impurites that add to the chlorine demand and will form chloramines and other compounds. Ammonia is a bi product of the reaction when adding thiosulphate to chlorinated water. Chlorine only is used to sanitize water supplies in NZ and when you add chlorine you will always get chloramines unless you use distilled water.

[M@.]

When you allow water to stand or aerate it to get rid of the chlorine the chloramines all move back to monochloramine and this will react with your fish the same as an under chlorinated swimming pool will with your eyes.

So... leaving the water to stand isn't really a good thing / doesnt work? If you just put it in straight I guess it would over time anyway though?

in that case what is the best way to treat your water if you have inverts (shrimp and koura) when they are supposedly adverse to dechlorinators?

[wonka]

a bit of salt leaching out of driftwood from the beach, really is the least of your worries.

every now and then i notice a bit of fungus on my bully, especially if the water changes have been infrequent and the temperature to high. remedy is a 50% water change then throw in a big handful of plain salt. it loves that treatment and perks up almost instantly. never change more than 50% of your water. dont do it!

[wonka]

M@. i have found that all that stuff on the shelves is just so much nonsense.

i dont even look at that stuff no more. i had a big koura for about 12mths a while back. chloronated tap water never bothered it. i tired of this critters constant harassment of my bully in the end.

[wonka]

blondfish, fine sand is the best substrate. if you put rocks in there, it will pay to half bury them in the sand. you do not want food and other debris dissapearing into unseen areas. it is a common mistake. poor water quality will be the result. you must be able to vacuum away any "unpleasantness". thats what i find anyways.