rhinokiwi Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Hi everyone This is my first time here, just registered. I am totally new to keeping fish and really need some advice. The main problem is that I have so much conflicting information that I don't know if I'm even doing the basics right. I bought a 21 litre "goldfish learner kit" from the pet store about a month ago. I followed the assistant's advice on 'cycling' the tank, introducing fish, etc. We have a small Black Moor and a small Blue Fantail. All seemed to be OK and apart from a few murky water days which cleared up after water changes, it's gone OK. Until two days ago when the Black Moor got some white spots which got worse the following day. Seeing they were of a 'cotton wool' texture, I worked out it might be a fungal infection. I did a water change which perked him up and cleared up some of the spots instantly and then added some Wunder Tonic yesterday. This morning he is back to more white spots and he's sitting at the bottom of the tank, hardly moving for most of the day. And now the Blue Fantail has started acting oddly, hovering near the top of the tank. I now realise that the tank is way too small for fancy goldfish - which is annoying when the box states that it's for goldfish and the pet store assistant said we could have two fish in it! Anyway, I can't afford a new tank so will have to try and make do for now. It has a filter that sits on the side of the tank and has a charcoal and wool filter plus a biogrid. The instructions that came with the filter were terrible and I was mistakenly cleaning the biogrid each week when I think I was supposed to just leave it be. I've been adding "good bacteria" each week and doing a 25% water change also. Previously, I wasn't conditioning the new water properly (I didn't know I had to wait for the water conditioner to work before I added the new water to the tank - darn instructions!). Specifically, the things I need help with are: 1. Should my tank have a pump as well as a filter (for the oxygenation of the water)? 2. As I have a charcoal filter will my tank actually be cycling? 3. When I do a water change I am removing most of the water so that I can filter out the waste (they are goldfish, they poop a lot!) and then returning the water to the tank. Should I just remove the 25% and leave the remaining water in the tank in the hope that the filter or bacteria will remove the waste? Perhaps I'm doing TOO much! 4. If these little guys don't survive what type of fish would be suitable for this size tank? 5. Is there anything I can do now to try and help the sick fish? Help! (and thanks) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunbird73 Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Hiya, sorry to hear you got crappy info from the shop! But so SO common, think everyone starts out doing this! I did it too, but with tropical fish... so you are not alone Exactly how big are your fish? There are better goldfish experts here than me, but it sounds like you might have ich. But regardless what disease you have, it essentially is from fish becoming stressed, with their immune system lowered from problems with the water. I would say your water quality is poor likely from a combination of new tank syndrome and possibly too much bioload (fish) for the tank to process. Your tank is cycling and will be spiking ammonia and nitrite at some point which will be toxic to the fish. Your local fish store (what area are you in?) usually will test your water for you if you bring a sample into them. This will tell you whether your tank is cycling or not, and if you have dangerously high levels of ammonia or nitrite. Re: water changes - how often are you doing them? Generally at any one time I would take out 20% minimum, probably the maximum I would take out at any one time would be 50%. Changing more than this at any one time will make it hard for the fish to adjust to the new water and will stress them. Seeing as your tank is small, and you have proportionally large fish vs. tank size, you might need to take out 30% twice a week. Probably better if fish are unwell to do more frequent smaller changes than one big one. Replace the amount of water you took out with fresh, conditioned water. I often just add the amount of conditioner to the bucket going in, never bother waiting - I don't think that will be an issue as long as you are adding the conditioner. Some people add it to the tank first and then put water straight out of the tap into the tank. Either way. When changing your water, also don't filter out the sludge and return it (sounds like a lot of effort too!) - a lot of good bacteria grows in the gravel, which are needed to cycle your tank. Just leave it or vacuum with a siphon lightly to get the worst of the debris on top of the gravel. If these guys don't make it, there are some really cute smaller fish that could go in here. Mountain minnows are pretty, and come in a gold variety as well. If they do make it you could pass them on to someone with a bigger tank, or see if your fish shop will take them back (they probably won't, but they should because it was their advice that was dodgy!) Helping the sick fish - I would get your water healthy rather than medicating, small frequent water changes is what I would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhinokiwi Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Thank you so SO much for the quick response and helpful advice. These fish are my kids' pets and I don't want to lose them this early on if it can be helped. I have been doing a 25 to 30% water change once a week but have obviously been too eager with my tank cleaning. Until the fish are better (fingers crossed) I will try a proper 25% water change every two days. When I did it this afternoon they were both rather lively, swimming, eating the little bit of food i gave them and creating more waste (!) but once I finished they returned to the same behaviour as before. They are both about 6cms long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculator Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just a tip if you are dosing with a medicine you will need to remove the charcoal as the charcoal will remove any medicine that you add to the water before it has all its effect. Other then that what Sunbird73 said and keep up the water changes. Good luck with your fish. edit: And if you dont think you will be able to cope with the tank size requirements of these fish it may be easier to sell/give them away before you get attached to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunbird73 Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 The other thing I would do, until your tank is cycled properly, is to only feed them every 2nd/3rd day for a week or so. And only once a day, very light feeding. Less in is less out It is also a very common mistake to overfeed fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 I have complained to retailers before about selling unsuitably sized tanks as "goldfish learner kits". As you have discovered, your tank is way too small for them. If your fish have ich (and most likely) it will look like they have been sprinkled with salt. Fungus is fluffier. Read the instructions on the Wonder Tonic and follow then carefully. I suggest you see if you can re-home the fish as soon as possible (you will have to get them well first) then get something more suitable. Explain to your kids that a small tank is not good for goldfish and you need to give them a better home, then replace them with something a lot smaller. Heaters are not expensive these days so it would not be difficult to go tropical and then your choice of fish would be wider. The only cold water fishes suitable for a tank that size are white cloud mountain minnows (already suggested) or leopardfish. If you went tropical, you could have a Siamese fighter or a few cherry barbs, lamb chop rasboras, neons, micro rasboras, or danios. They poo a lot less than goldfish too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 it is not easy keeping goldfish in very small tanks. especially those fancy type ones you have, they are a lot more fragile than your standard comet. it is also not OK to keep goldfish in very small tanks, such as the one you were sold. the situation you are in is not your fault. some retailers will say anything to make a sale, even if they are putting living creatures at risk. :an!gry add your location to your profile in the settings menu. depending on where you are then we may be able to point you towards more credible retailers for future purchases. any advise you need, feel free to ask us anything. you've totally come to the right place with your fish woes. this is your thread now so keep us posted on how you are going. oh, and after you've got it all sorted, write a polite note to your fish shop detailing the amount of trouble that their ignorant advise has caused you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 guys... i'm not sure anyone has answered question number 1 yet. has anyone answered question 1? no? all the other questions have been answered. our panel of experts seem to have missed it. so, i shall answer question 1 for you. 1. Should my tank have a pump as well as a filter (for the oxygenation of the water)? my answer: there definitely should be bubbles going into your tank. if the filter is not able to be adjusted/modified to blow bubbles, then an air pump is highly advised. bubbles will help smooth out any chemical balance issues in the tank. they will also stop the fish from drowning. if you notice fish gulping air from the surface, it's because there aren't enough bubbles. fish need air just as much as they need water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 If the fish are gulping at the surface it is because they lack oxygen, not bubbles. I have never had bubbles in any of my tanks and not had a problem with drowning fish. I am assuming the filter described is a small internal. If so, positioning it so it breaks up the surface should be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 If the fish are gulping at the surface it is because they lack oxygen, not bubbles. I have never had bubbles in any of my tanks and not had a problem with drowning fish. bubbles have oxygen in them therefore are means of delivering oxygen to the water. lack of oxygen is generally solved by adding bubbles. that's all i meant, keeping it simple, no need to get all technical on the poor fulla. obviously tanks of higher water volume and smaller bio load wouldn't need to worry as much about having bubbles (aka oxygen) going into the tank since there is plenty of water for the fish to absorb oxygen from. but only 21 litres, with two big goldfish....? they gonna use up any oxygen in the water pretty fast innit.. in my experience 5 big fat goldfish can suck up most of the oxygen from 200 litres in a day or two. anyway. could be wrong. just trying to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critter_crazy Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 I'm pretty sure the tanks your talking about have a small hang on back, in which case having the water level slightly lower can get more flow into your tank, if not a small air pump can't do any harm. I blame suppliers aswell for making these "goldfish learner tanks" many of which have pictures of the tanks filled with 5 or 6 massive goldfish. I also reccommend you write an e-mail or similar to the retailer. Unfortunatley these kind of tanks are going to be around until they cause negative feedback as in the big bosses eyes any sale is a good sale - the more people kick up a stink the better. There are places out there with staff who do want you to succeed and do care about the wellbeing of the fish, unfortunatley it's just finding them. If I had my way all those small boxed tanks would never have images of goldfish on them as they're really only suitable for tropical fish! One voice sadly makes very little difference though. My advice would be to rehome your goldfish and invest in a heater - tropicals are much easier to keep in your size tank and IMO are much cooler as there's heaps to choose from! Kids enjoy the bright colours too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 i'm glad there are some clued up people working at fish retail outlets, such as yourself CC. to rhinokiwi - i have a spare heater and air pump i'd be happy to donate if you care to pay for shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godly3vil Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 An airpump does not add oxygen to the tank, the oxygen comes from the surface agitation which the bubbles cause. This can usually be done without an airpump by directing the outlet of your filter to break the water and cause surface movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 An airpump does not add oxygen to the tank, the oxygen comes from the surface agitation which the bubbles cause. This can usually be done without an airpump by directing the outlet of your filter to break the water and cause surface movement. exactly. hence my original comment if the filter is not able to be adjusted/modified to blow bubbles, then an air pump is highly advised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 An airpump does not add oxygen to the tank if air pump bubbles containing oxygen do not add oxygen to the water, how is it that co2 bubbles add co2 to the water? am i wasting my time with my co2 bubbler setup? or do air pumps filter out the oxygen before blowing it into the tank? :dno: granted, i usually i confuse myself. but this time i'm pretty sure its all ya'll making this confusing.... :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhinokiwi Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Thanks for all the help. The filter does create a bit of a splash from the 'waterfall' that trickles out of it so I guess that's helping a bit. Obviously my main issue here is the size of the tank I didn't realise that tropical fish would be easier to look after than a couple of goldfish or I would have let the kids pick those gorgeous neons after all. I'm rather annoyed at myself as I do research for a living and obviously didn't research this properly before trusting the "fish expert" at the Animates store. I have reduced their feeding to very small amounts. The Black Moor has been swimming more this evening and now the Blue Fantail has taken his place on the bottom of the tank (must be a premium spot behind that ornament!). Thanks for the offer of the heater and air pump disgustipated but I think I will try and get a larger second-hand tank for them. Should have bought a blardy cat! :bggrn: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunbird73 Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Don't beat yourself up, a lot of us came into the hobby the same way as you. I started out with a small tank like yours (but tropical) and was told that I could have 10 fish in it :roll: - so I bought my 10 fish on the same day as my tank - big no-no to fully/overstock into an uncycled tank!! ..... and had a disaster exactly the same as yours, small tank, too many fish. So after a baptism of fire, I then learnt about cycling, testing water, and how to restrain myself and keep the stocking level low until I knew what I was doing. I think you are doing really well, a lot of less interested people would just replace their goldfish every week :an!gry What city are you in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 if air pump bubbles containing oxygen do not add oxygen to the water, how is it that co2 bubbles add co2 to the water? am i wasting my time with my co2 bubbler setup? or do air pumps filter out the oxygen before blowing it into the tank? :dno: granted, i usually i confuse myself. but this time i'm pretty sure its all ya'll making this confusing.... :roll: Bubbles are made of air which contains some oxygen. The bubbles create surface movement which allows for gas exchange i.e. air can enter the tank and gases can escape. With a CO2 unit you are pumping CO2 in to the water which will remain but if you have surface movement then it is not as effective as the CO2 can escape your tank. Does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhinokiwi Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Two happy fish today! No more sitting on the bottom, just a bit of hovering at the top, but for the most part swimming together again :dnc1: Water changes have been the saviour. Glad I found this forum I am in the Hutt Valley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunbird73 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Excellent, glad to hear they are doing better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomGilberg Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 if air pump bubbles containing oxygen do not add oxygen to the water, how is it that co2 bubbles add co2 to the water? am i wasting my time with my co2 bubbler setup? :roll: Isnt the aim with a CO2 setup to keep the bubbles away from the surface for as Long as possible, to let them diffuse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 TIL that there is more oxygen in their air around the surface of the water than there is 30cm away in the air around the air pump intake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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