disgustipated Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 this is a thread to state your opinion and thoughts on cichlid hybrids. a somewhat controversial topic it seems. of course they often occur unintentionally in the aquarium hobby, but some of us are breeding hybrids intentionally and this is where i am interested to hear your thoughts. while some of us fantasize about possible results of hybrid fish, i have also seen people so opposed to the idea that they have launched personal attacks upon others. let me be clear - opinions are welcome, judgement is not. let's keep this polite and constructive. breeding hybrids - yay or nay, and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wee2 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 nice and clear topic with full instruction before junk and intruders take in place. +1 :sage: I will be the positive side to the point. its the nature of Cichlid world especially when comes to smaller waters. I am not fancy abt hybrid but I wont say no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 as long as you sell it as Hybrid im fine with it, used to have dreams about certain ultra midas severum crosses, not enough room to bother. also I wonder if anyone is working on Barb hybrids??? a few nice possibilities there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculator Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Personally I think it shouldnt be done deliberately, it is unnatural. If it happens accidentally I am more accepting of them, it is better they go to good homes then be killed, but I would never buy one as I dont think it is right. The more important thing though is that they are properly cared for (big enough tank size, appropriate tank mates, correct water conditions). I would prefer a properly cared for hybrid to a 'pure breed' in inappropriate conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dachende Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Is it naturally occurring ? If so , I don't see a problem with it . Some of the hybrids I've seen have been absolutely stunning fish. Is it any different to crossbred dogs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 +1 all dogs are bred from wolf stock, so how can we judge. I personally think we should protect our natural stock, but if we can play why not, god made man to be god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculator Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Is it any different to crossbred dogs ? I would say it is different to cross breading dogs, as dogs are much closer related the the fish that you are cross breeding (Not sure if it is just an 'old wives tale' but I have been told that cross breed dogs are healthy and more hardy then 'pure breeds', but now I need to :smot: myself). I think a closer comparison would be comparing cross breeding lions with tigers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 hrmmmm.... cross breed Lygers..... genetically if they are able to cross breed they likely would.... unless humans got in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dachende Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Slightly :smot: But.... There is only one place in the wild where the lion and tiger range overlaps- the Gir Forest. Even there, lions and tigers hardly ever come across each other, since the Gir Forest doesn't make great tiger "turf" so , tigers very rarely meet up with lions. Many people, because of this overlap in territory, claim that ligers and tigons can be found in the wild. This isn't true though. Lions and tigers never mate in the wild, because they are not wired to do so . The only time they have been bred together is with human intervention , which gets back to my question : Do Cichlids cross breed in the wild without human intervention ? That one question for me would swing my vote either way, depending on the answer . :dunno: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Do Cichlids cross breed in the wild without human intervention ? Yes that is how they have become the way they have, evolution. ( not trying to start a war) New varites pop up over long periods of time due to cross breeding. And for me cross breeds are not cool. I like pure strain fish and the best quality that I can find. I get grumpy when I buy a ..... fry to grow it out and find out that its mixed. Happend to me last year when I got some "Jaguars" turns out they are crossed with convicts :facepalm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Personally I think it shouldnt be done deliberately, it is unnatural. If it happens accidentally I am more accepting of them I couldn't disagree more. I'm of mixed feeling about hybrids. If you're going to attempt to selectively breed something awesome (actually "better" than just a regular species, kinda like fancy discus or flowerhorns) and are going to put some time and effort into it and will be marketing it as a hybrid then go for your life. But just haphazardly crossing A with B to see what happens (or just having it accidentally "happen" in a comm tank and then raising the fry) then trying to make a buck off the results by selling every last offspring is detrimental to the hobby, IMO. Crossing similar specie, where there is a high chance of creating something that will lead to identification troubles down the line (like the midas X red devil mess we have now, where pretty much everything not from a known and reputable source should be considered a hybrid) pointless and somewhat reckless. There are some very cool hybrids out there though, its sort of a shame the african cichlid community isn't more into it, look at what has been achieved with discus, imagine the potential for colourful peacock hybrids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarletmonuka Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 There are some very cool hybrids out there though, its sort of a shame the african cichlid community isn't more into it, look at what has been achieved with discus, imagine the potential for colourful peacock hybrids! Just look at the OB Peacock... beautiful fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculator Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 @David I am not a fan of the 'fancy' line breed fish either, I prefer the more natural looking fish. But then again I am a fan of odd ball fish, none of my favorite fish have much colour to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Slightly :smot: But.... There is only one place in the wild where the lion and tiger range overlaps- the Gir Forest. Even there, lions and tigers hardly ever come across each other, since the Gir Forest doesn't make great tiger "turf" so , tigers very rarely meet up with lions. Many people, because of this overlap in territory, claim that ligers and tigons can be found in the wild. This isn't true though. Lions and tigers never mate in the wild, because they are not wired to do so . The only time they have been bred together is with human intervention , which gets back to my question : Do Cichlids cross breed in the wild without human intervention ? That one question for me would swing my vote either way, depending on the answer . :dunno: yes but if humans weren't in the equation their ranges would overlap craploads more, giving the chance of hybrids an increase, also increasing the possibility of fertile hybrids and there fore survival of the fittest style evolution occuring. remember that the Sabre tooth dissapeard about the same time that human civilisation was developing, also that at least 3 subspecies of lion and 3 of tiger are now extinct because of us, feed them the rapists and watch them thrive btw YES cichlids do hybridise in the wild, there was a recent paper published on cichlids in lake nicaragua hybridising and developing into completely new species withing 10 generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 @David I am not a fan of the 'fancy' line breed fish either, I prefer the more natural looking fish. But then again I am a fan of odd ball fish, none of my favorite fish have much colour to them. Me too! I'd take a school of wild type discus over the pretty colourful ones any day. I like my tanks and fish looking natural, but from an an ethical point of view I'm not opposed to selectively bred hybrids, except for the "extreme" types with the messed up deformed bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 If you're doing it to create something cool I don't see much of an issue (so long as it's done ethically) but selling mongrel hybrids as decent fish should be a hangable offence. Obviously the Liger fits into the first category and such a project should be started immediately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted November 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 we shouldn't mess with evolution. but we can play with it, can't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Me too! I'd take a school of wild type discus over the pretty colourful ones any day. I like my tanks and fish looking natural, but from an an ethical point of view I'm not opposed to selectively bred hybrids, except for the "extreme" types with the messed up deformed bodies. yeah but you can do that without hybridisation i.e goldfish, balloon mollies etc..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disgustipated Posted November 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Me too! I'd take a school of wild type discus over the pretty colourful ones any day. I like my tanks and fish looking natural, but from an an ethical point of view I'm not opposed to selectively bred hybrids, except for the "extreme" types with the messed up deformed bodies. ^^this is why nz native tanks are so rad last weekend i saw a few different (obviously) hybrids for sale at one of aucklands most popular LFS, they were advertised as "other" for $10. none of them looked very nice at all. my mate has a completely warped parrot/convict.. its mouth is off to the side and its face is twisted, fins in the wrong place... but it is the boss of the tank, plump and bold fish. (kinda cool imho) if you are going to breed hybrids you need to be comfortable with kulling a lot of fry and even grown fish in order to select the cream of the crop. because chances are most or all of them are not gonna be good looking fish. "keeping fish thoroughly entertains my god complex" -anonymous.. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15hguy Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 buy yourself a nice big nasty to keep the bad hybrids down, makes culling a lot less heart breaking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruju Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 I agree with DavidR. Nothing wrong with hybrids, but I do think there should be a goal to the breeding rather than haphazard sampling. No point in making a rubbish looking hybrid when the original species looks so much better. But look at the Flowerhorns; line bred to have amazing colour, some have taken it too far and bred ridiculous warped creatures - balance is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 I worry about internal organs and having a poor imune system with hybrids, things not should be there that isnt there blah blah. I understand it could happen to pure breeds as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 There are some very cool hybrids out there though, its sort of a shame the african cichlid community isn't more into it, look at what has been achieved with discus, imagine the potential for colourful peacock hybrids! there are plenty of hybrids and line bred africans throwing a specific trait around over seas. The vivid red peacocks are a good example and we even have those fire cracker tropheus here and from what i can tell a lot of them seem to come from germany. i am against hybridising african cichlids in NZ simply because of the limited stock we already have, if what we have left is crossed with another species we will quickly loose what "near to pure" fish we currently have and it's getting harder to bring in fish as well. In other countries that have large amounts of good stock there is no harm mixing and matching and i'm keen to see what they can come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camtang Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Are fire crackers hybrids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smidey Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Are fire crackers hybrids? as i understood it they are some hybrid line bred thing out of germany. i'll happily take advice otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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