Nearly flooded the house - PLEASE HELP.

[Faithbleed]

So you raise the overflow and spraybar in the tank so less water drains out of it into the sump.

Or make the whole sump higher with the baffles the same height.

Or you run with less water overall. That way the return pump chamber in the sump should have less water in it, but everything else would be at the same water level.

Thanks Ira, I appreciate the feedback and assistance, but none of these will solve the problems.

As you can see, even with the the split put into the return line, theres not enough space. The line folds, which will restrict flow

It seems the solution is going to be a build a new sump with shorter baffles. Ala:

Also, upon further research it turns out the instructions included in the box of the skimmer was wrong and the water level can be anywhere from 12.5cm - 25cm, so the skimmer wont work in the current sump anyway.

So the plan is now to get a sump built. :-?

[Ira]

Why do you have the split in the return line?

But, yes, the bottom one should work. Or somewhere between the two. Or the top one with less water in the return section if that will give you enough capacity.

[Faithbleed]

Why do you have the split in the return line?

But, yes, the bottom one should work. Or somewhere between the two. Or the top one with less water in the return section if that will give you enough capacity.

I split the return, because there return is too powerful and it drains the end section of the sump too quickly, making it run dry before it has a chance to refill.

It's too difficult to tweak because I don't have enough play in the sump and I almost flooded the house the last time I added enough water and got it cycling between the 2 tanks.

It's hard to explain, I almost need to show you in person.

[Ira]

I split the return, because there return is too powerful and it drains the end section of the sump too quickly, making it run dry before it has a chance to refill.

Is the pump section draining because the bubble trap is too restrictive or it doesn't have a chance to overflow from the tank back into the sump on start up before it empties it? A wider bubble trap will help the first. The second, does it stabilize if you give it a few minutes? Might blow a few bubbles into the tank, which would be annoying.

[Faithbleed]

I did manage to get to to stabilize, but it was with a very full tank and under filled sump (pump running with lots of bubbles) and I wouldn't be happy running it like that.

I think the flow through overflow is sufficient, I think it was a combination of low flow through the bubble trap and a (too) powerful return pump.

[Ira]

Sounds like you need to make the bubble trap larger. The whole point of it is to have relatively slow flow through it. If it's fast then you're just carrying bubbles through rather than them floating upwards on the incoming side while the water goes downward.

Haha, Cool, I found an old diagram of my sump...

I didn't have a bubble trap and didn't have any issues with bubbles, but it's a little bigger than yours.

[livingart]

got some pics of your whole set up?

[Faithbleed]

Thanks for that.

Mine is about half the length of yours (700L x 400W x 450H).

I want to do a skimmer/fuge/return type setup w/ a bubble trap and I think it's still possible, I just need to reduce the height of the baffles and widen the bubble trap.

I like your design Ira, but I would loose the refugium option if I were to go that direction.

I read the following website (http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html) which stated the bubble trap gaps need to be 1". If that's too small for my setup, what size gap would you recommend?

[Faithbleed]

got some pics of your whole set up?

Ok, I'll try put this in picture form as best I can:

Full Setup - Water level sitting just below the return line (any higher and it drains back into the sump)

Tank

Overflow

Sump

[marinefish4life]

are those LEDs?

[Faithbleed]

are those LEDs?

They will be, but for now theyre t5's (2.x12k, 2x ascintic blue).

[Ira]

I like your design Ira, but I would loose the refugium option if I were to go that direction.

Why would you lose the refugium? In that one the refugium was almost the same volume as your whole sump. The skimmer and 2 media reactors were sitting in the refugium but fed by the return pump.

[Faithbleed]

Sorry Ira, I assume a few things:

• - That a refugium needs sand.
  - Protein skimmers cant sit in sand
  - That middle section didn't have sand in it and was just water/equipment

Either you ran the skimmer in sand or the there was no sand and it's still classed as a refugium.

[Ira]

Sorry Ira, I assume a few things:

• - That a refugium needs sand.
  - Protein skimmers cant sit in sand
  - That middle section didn't have sand in it and was just water/equipment

Either you ran the skimmer in sand or the there was no sand and it's still classed as a refugium.

The particular one in that picture was a HOB one, it was full of some 20-30kg of liverock. There wasn't any reason to put detailed drawings of livestock.

[Faithbleed]

Hows about this then:

400H x 400W x 700L (slightly shorter in height than the previous sump to allow for easier hand access)

Baffles are all 250H, except for the middle of the bubble traps baffles which is raised 40mm off the bottom.

Baffles are now 40mm apart, instead of the previous 25mm.

The space above the baffles will more than allow for pump failure and it's set at an ideal height for the skimmer and return pump (provided the last section doesn't drain to quickly)

Any comments or suggestions would be most appreciated.

[blueether]

I cant see why the current sump cant be made to work.

If there isn't enough flow from one end of the sump to the other have the return pump split (like you have now) but have the excess water go back into the last chamber of the sump. Would that work?

If there is issues with kinked hoses could you use a 90 deg bend or two? Hanson do them threaded and with barbed for hoses.

[Faithbleed]

I cant see why the current sump cant be made to work.

If there isn't enough flow from one end of the sump to the other have the return pump split (like you have now) but have the excess water go back into the last chamber of the sump. Would that work?

If there is issues with kinked hoses could you use a 90 deg bend or two? Hanson do them threaded and with barbed for hoses.

I did give that a thought, but my concern is if the pump fails that my carpet will end up swimming with the current sump and the skimmer won't function with the current water level in the first section (and I can't raise the skimmer without hitting the stand's roof).

[Faithbleed]

I took the sump out and ran an experiment. :smln:

I filled it and put the pump in the end section and the return line back into the first section and turn it on.

The flow was fine, it stabilized immediately. So that rules out the baffles.

- Problem 1: Not enough flow from the overflow coupled with a powerful pump causing the last section of the sump to drain too quickly (Solved by sectioning off part of the return line back into the sump.)

- Problem 2: Height of the baffles puts the water above the skimmers operating level (Solved by getting a new sump built with lower baffles - no way around that.)

- Problem 3: Kinks in return line caused by the height of the baffles (Solved by #2 or getting elbow fittings.)

- Problem 4: In even of a pump failure, flooding will occur (Solved by #2.)

Thanks for all the assistance guys , looks like I'll be commissioning a new sump regardless.

And here I was thinking I did enough research - :oops:. Lesson learned, moving on. :bounce:

[RUNAS]

Faithbleed, I know Im a noobe but I can see the easiest way of dealing with this is to put a gate valve on your return line?

Im running a 250 lt system with a 9500 LPH pump (long story, but lets just say head height issues ok) I have 2x 25mm outlets (1x durso controlled 1x uncontrolled) with these dropping 2.8 meters and my 2 foot sump handles that no problems.

By the time I have my baffles, return pump, protein skimmer and pump AND the pump for my chiller real estate is at a premium down there, but it all balances out fine.

Some solutions are easier than the problem.

RUNAS

[Faithbleed]

Faithbleed, I know Im a noobe but I can see the easiest way of dealing with this is to put a gate valve on your return line?

Cheers RUNAS, that does seem like a simple enough solution.

My concern is that it will have a negative effect on the pump (pressure/stress).

My solution (with the help of the forum dwellers) was to split the line, thus no pressure on the pump and the sump fills quicker, reducing the risk of the end section draining.

[Ira]

In a centrifugal pump increasing the back pressure doesn't really increase the stress on the pump.

If you have a vacuum cleaner running and plug the hose you the load doesn't increase. The motor speeds up as the load on the motor drops. Higher RPM=lower load and lower current draw. Water pumps work the same way.

[Faithbleed]

In a centrifugal pump increasing the back pressure doesn't really increase the stress on the pump.

If you have a vacuum cleaner running and plug the hose you the load doesn't increase. The motor speeds up as the load on the motor drops. Higher RPM=lower load and lower current draw. Water pumps work the same way.

Aaaah, this I did not know.

Thanks Ira. When the new sump arrives I'll give both options a try.

Also, does anyone have any ideas/uses for the old sump?

I was thinking about keeping it and using it as a quarantine tank or to breed live food?

[RUNAS]

Hey Faithbleed, Ive been pondering your issue on and off today and one thing came to mind.

I think you may find that if you T off your return the water MAY go in the path of least resistance or out the short one, due to the head pressure of the other tube? Am I making sense?

SO just as a back up it may pay to have a ball valve or tap on the direct return to the sump to control that output, or you may find the exact opposite to you current situation, all water in sump and not in tank.

Just something else to consider :thup:

RUNAS

[Faithbleed]

Yeah, I think I get what you mean, that's why there's a a ball valve on the split, to control how much gets returned into the sump.

At max it'll be 50% reduced, at most I can put 100% back into the tank.

Like this:

If the case is that there'll be no stress on the pump if I put a valve straight on the return line, then the split may not be neccessary.

I'll see how the new sump runs, I can do either option easily enough.

[anthony law]

why have taps on the drains.if it was me run the drains straight into the sump .fit a tap to the flow pump

to set flow and tee it off for to drop flow pressure..