chris_irl Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 My last test done was last night Amm: 0 Nitirite: 20ppm Nitrate: 5ppm Changed 40% to remove snail rid dose and did some work on the tank, adding weights to the driftwood to hold it down and moved a plant or two. Added a little ammonia solution (20ml or so) just to keep bacteria turning over Test it this morning again Amm:0 Nitrite: 20ppm Nitrate: 160ppm+ (as dark a colour as the scale goes) Changed another 20% this morning, no fish in tank yet it's still cycling. Any reason the nitrates would skyrocket like that? The substrate is peat under sand, would disturbing it to bury the weights released that much nitrate? I'm confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 A couple of thoughts. Aquatic plants preferentially take up ammonia before they use nitrate. So, you might get a larger population of nitrifying bacteria in your filter if you remove the plants, and put them in later on when the filter is cycled. But since your nitrite levels are high, perhaps you don't need to. Disturbing the substrate with oxygenated water could have killed off the anaerobic denitrifying bacteria which had been converting nitrate to N2 gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 My last test done was last night Amm: 0 Nitirite: 20ppm Nitrate: 5ppm Changed 40% to remove snail rid dose and did some work on the tank, adding weights to the driftwood to hold it down and moved a plant or two. Added a little ammonia solution (20ml or so) just to keep bacteria turning over Test it this morning again Amm:0 Nitrite: 20ppm Nitrate: 160ppm+ (as dark a colour as the scale goes) Changed another 20% this morning, no fish in tank yet it's still cycling. Any reason the nitrates would skyrocket like that? The substrate is peat under sand, would disturbing it to bury the weights released that much nitrate? I'm confused. What concentration was the ammonia solution at. also, you already had nitrites, they would have converted to nitrate. also, your ammonia in your morning reading is 0, so your tank dealt to the ammonia you added, creating NO2 and NO3. Do a couple water changes over teh day to bring it down. NO3 is not harmful to your fish. Aquatic plants preferentially take up ammonia before they use nitrate. They readily take up ammonium, (NH4+) which as you'd know by now is pH based, and varies wildly in each tank dependant on a number of factors, and is in a equilibrium. So, you might get a larger population of nitrifying bacteria in your filter if you remove the plants, and put them in later on when the filter is cycled. But since your nitrite levels are high, perhaps you don't need to. Whilst the filter is a main source of high-surface area for bacteria, reality is that they will grow on everything and anything that is in the tank. Removing plants is only going to increase your NO3 readings. As G.C points out, you have already cycled if your moving that ammonia solution to NO3 overnight! If anything, get more plants! Disturbing the substrate with oxygenated water could have killed off the anaerobic denitrifying bacteria which had been converting nitrate to N2 gas. You have to have at least a 6" sand bed to get anaerobic bacteria... so, end of day, song remains the same.... DO YOUR WATERCHANGES! :thup: EDIT: just saw your substrate note. how long has your peat been in there? that could well be a source of NO3's... see here : http://journals.lww.com/soilsci/Citation/1971/02000/Nitrate_Transformation_in_Peat.6.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Your ammonia to nitrite bacteria are developing but your nitrite to nitrate bacteria still have a way to go. One of the broblems with your method of cycling---you added too much ammonia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstar99 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Doesnt look like too much ammonia was added to me if it was zero again the next day. I reckon - like the others said- do daily water changes to bring you nitrites down under 5. Dont disturb your substrate. Also You will not get true nitrate readings while you still have nitrites. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 You only get nitrites by adding ammonia and having the bacteria to convert it to nitrite. You need now to develop the next stage. 20 mls is a lot of ammonia if it is at a decent strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstar99 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 yeah you could be right. i dont know how big the tank is or what ammonia measures after adding it but it was dealt with in 24hrs. The next stage certainly needs to develop more and will stall until those nitrite levels are brought down. Mistakes were made by rearraging the plants and substrate which wouldnt of helped too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Can you imagine that 6 danios would produce 20mls of ammonia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstar99 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Cant imagine that. There will be no ammonia spikes if he cycles with 20mls of ammonia then stocks with 6 danios then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_irl Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Amm was 18mg per litre., added 20ml.about 2ppm overall Back to zero overnight. I'll check it all tmro anyway, off to womad today. No fish so no real danger, I'll change asuch as needed tmro to sort it and re test too in case I messed it up slightly. Thanks for the replies though, interesting stuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueether Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 You have to have at least a 6" sand bed to get anaerobic bacteria... I see nitrate reduction in my native tank with only ~75mm to ~120mm of sand across over 1/3 of the footprint, no planting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ammonia as used in an aquarium setting normally refers to total ammonia ie. both free ammonia and ammonium ion, the respective levels of which depend on pH and temperature. Free ammonia freely diffuses across cell membranes into aquatic plant leaves where it is converted to ammonium, and either stored, or, used in amino acid synthesis. The uptake of ammonium requires membrane transporters and is something that requires energy as opposed to the free diffusion of free ammonia. In an acidic environment ( presumably the case here because of the peat substrate ), then the plant presumably will need to actively transport ammonium as it should be the major form of ammonia. Anaerobic bacteria can co-exist with aerobic bacteria in biofilms, and do not require a deep sand bed as blueether reports.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I hope this is not turning into another argument thread :sage: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 What do the test kits read for? Are they ammonia and ammonium or just ammonia? Ammonia is soluble in water and will form an equilibrium with ammonium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 The API test kits measure total ammonia. The seachem ammonia alert measures free toxic ammonia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_irl Posted March 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 hmm... I was not with it yesterday obviously. tested today again: Amm: 0ppm Nitrite: .5ppm (same as previous times, not 20ppm) :oops: Nitrate: 10ppm today I reckon I must have messed up the test, too many or too few drops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstar99 Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 good news. nearly ready for some fish. :happy2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcs Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Retest. retest. retest. If still getting those readings, do a large water change. Then perhaps question the kit itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstar99 Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Retest. retest. retest. If still getting those readings, do a large water change. Then perhaps question the kit itself. See above. Getting more normal readings now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_irl Posted March 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 20% change today and retest amm 0 nitrite 0 nitrate <5 ph 6.8-7 Tank ready for fishies :happy2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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