Duke Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Do you need to have PH sponges on PH's ? They all have good guards etc but do they need the filters, thinking of having to clean them ? I have a sump and looking at adding a second sump. Also looking at a wave make and 4 x PH's for my 4ft tank. Plus sump return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 No dont run any sponges or filter media as they will produce nitrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 wouldnt make nitrate if submerged though steve. just make for constant cleaning, which is no good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 yes, they can produce nitrates if they become clogged and are not cleaned. dont use them, they are (pretty much) pointless. its your skimmer and live rock that are your main sources of filtration. also water movement is what you want and the sponge will just reduce the flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 How do they produce nitrate under anaerobic conditions? Nitrobacter needs oxygen to convert trite to trate. you think maybe from small amount of bubbles perhaps caught in the filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 I know they shouldnt be used, but I am interested in this topic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Nitrate is caused because the dirt gets trapped in the sponge and then it breaks down. pointless using them as they get blocked and will stop the water flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Oh, of course, simply through trapped decaying matter. forgot about that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 It indirectly produces them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Exactly, it is commonly believed that a filter has to be mucky to encourage the growth of nitrifying bacteria - wrong! If anything this can have the opposite effect with faster-growing heterotrophic bacteria competing for resources such as oxygen. There is also the possibility that many of the decomposition products from the breakdown of rotting organic matter may inhibit nitrifying bacteria, either by direct toxicity or creating a hostile microenvironment. In order to thrive, nitrifying bacteria only need a relatively clean environment with a steady supply of ammonia and oxygen. ps: nice smiley! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 ...and fresh salt water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 How do they produce nitrate under anaerobic conditions? Tank water is not an anaerobic place. There is plenty of oxygen in the water. There are micro environments created within the pores of live rock, and within biofilms which can be anaerobic, but the general tank is aerobic. Your fish would suffocate otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Really the key to keeping nitrates down is removing as much crap before it breaks down, and then having enough live rock to reduce any remaining nitrate which eventually get produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 There is also the possibility that many of the decomposition products from the breakdown of rotting organic matter may inhibit nitrifying bacteria, either by direct toxicity or creating a hostile microenvironment. Bacteria cause this decomposition to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 I realise there is lots of oxygen in the tank water, but in comprison with something similar to that and a trickle type system, the trickle type system is going to house 20 times as much nitrobacter then the tank water. In other words, the production of Nitrate from a small internal submersed powerhead filter, (If stupidly used for something else), will produce such a small fraction of nitrate IMO, that it would be barely noticeable on the grand scale of things when it comes to Nitrate production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 I agree that a clean tank with minimal or zero mechanical filters along with heaps of LR would be the most efficeient way to remove DOCS etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 I dunno, I think ideally you'd collect all the detritus in a spong that you could clean every day. That way it's actually being physically removed. That's detritus that's too big for it to be skimmed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 No need to remove every bit of dirt in the tank. detritus is good for worms,coral,,copodes etc, who has time to clean the sponge every day.?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petplanet Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 I go with sponges. Plenty of people have lost fish and inverts to unprotected powerheads. Whats the difference between the crap collecting in a sponge or between the cracks and gaps between rocks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Whats the difference between the crap collecting in a sponge or between the cracks and gaps between rocks? the difference is that if it between rock etc it will be utlised by worms, copepods,etc, sponges also reduce the water flow of power heads, I sure it would be ok if you use a sponge once in a while to polish the water, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 I realise there is lots of oxygen in the tank water, but in comprison with something similar to that and a trickle type system, the trickle type system is going to house 20 times as much nitrobacter then the tank water. Depends whether oxygen is limiting or not. I'd say not, and that nitrite is. Anyway it's not nitrobacter you are trying to avoid. It's the ammonia producing bacteria which break down the detritus. Once the ammonia is created, you've pretty much got to end up with nitrates. I suppose there are two ways to look at it, convert detritus to nitrate as soon as possible making sure you have enough live rock to support the de-nitrification. Or, remove as much crap as possible before it is broken down into ammonia and eventually nitrate, and have a smaller amount of live rock to process the nitrate which does get formed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 I run filter wool off and on. It does get very dirty very quickly (overnight) and needs replacing. I can't say I have ever noticed it making a difference but I see so much gunk collecting in it I can't help but think its helping. I have a tray over one of my overflows and can just add/remove at will, takes seconds so its not a big task. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 I used to run a 10 micron filter material in my sump as a pre filter and the crap it collected was amazing. Cant use it now as I have turned it into a refuge and it grows too much hair algae if I leave it in. (Fuge lights 24 hrs) The good thing about this material is it is too thin to harbour nitrifying bacteria, so you can pull crap out without producing nitrate. I have nowhere to use it now, but if anyone wants some PM me. I got quite a bit left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 You will probably find that the skimmer removes a bit more when the material is removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petplanet Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Fed my sun polyps last night and noticed that the sponge on the intake to my Ehiem wet/dry filter was packed with small bristleworms reaching out into the water trying to catch food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.