mcmillanm Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Through trial and error I seem to have solved the issue of whatever parasite was bothering my fish and causing them to over flash against objects a few weeks ago. I've been doing water changes every three days since then as some of my levels of nitrites, nitrates etc were a bit higher than I would have liked. Most of the fish seem ok except for a couple of neons who have a wee bit of fin damage and one with a small lump on it's top fin and two mollies who seem to have a moderate case of swirling disease? My remaining dalmatian girl stays near the top of the tank and a female gold dust molly seems to mainly stay near the bottom but sometimes swims normally. I've been treating the mollies with 20gms salt bath with a drop of meth blue once a day when I get time & the neons get a dip for a couple of minutes as they go sideways and seem to play dead when I put them in LOL. anyways, I tested the water today. My pH was around 7.2-7.6, kH was 4 and ammonia, nitrites were low but my nitrates are still at around 40ppm. I tested the tap water as Carol suggested earlier and that was 0. Should I be concerned at this level or is it normal? Thanks for your replies. :cofn: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Water changes should bring that level down but it's not going to kill your fish. If water changes aren't bringing it down you've probably got something rotting in the system and need to give everything a really good clean. Just keep an eye on it. From what I've experienced neons are extremely temperamental anyway. The nitrates probably aren't helping though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I would doubt that level of nitrate would be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Have you got those nitrate levels in your planted tank or another one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkLB Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 and ammonia, nitrites were low but my nitrates are still at around 40ppm. Even low levels of ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish. A stable tank should have 0.00 ammonia and nitrite. Water changes are the best thing you can do in this situation IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmillanm Posted October 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hi, My nitrites and ammonia did seem to be around 0 before my water change today so they have come down from a couple of weeks ago when they were a little way up the chart, it is mainly the nitrates that are worrying me. It is in my planted tank though - When it was mentioned that there may be something 'rotting' in my tank it reminded me that when I clean out the rio filter media there does seem to be some plant debrit that is still in there? There is also a bit of green scum/algae? that is stuck between the internal filter box and the glass that I can't get out... I'll do another water change and give that filter a clean on Saturday and maybe try to stand above the tank and see if I can see any plant matter stuck anywhere. Yeah, I've heard the neons can be a bit delicate so not too worried but I also assume it means the water quality still has room for improvement. :roey: Thanks for your ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 If it's a fully planted tank with 40ppm nitrates you need to add co2 and light and let the plants use the nitrates as fertiliser. You can add Excel instead of co2 but basically you've got fertiliser (one part anyway) and need co2 and light to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmillanm Posted October 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 Obstacle - do you mean Flourish Excel? I use that with leaf zone every 2nd water change (once a week). I just tested my other tank (lightly planted) and it too had nitrates at almost 40ppm and everything else ok. There was also a dead Otto cat:(( so I gave it a good vacuum under ornaments, a 40% water change and am dosing with aviverm as I know the ottos were wild caught and my smallest chain loach looks a bit thin and quiet. Anyway, re big tank : I'll do a bigger water change and move ornaments & try and give the rio filter a really good rinse on the weekend when I have some more time. I don't really want to add co2 if possible as it sounds like another expense and the tank is outside my bedroom - is it noisy? Should I add Excel with every water change? Thanks for the ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yeah, Flourish Excel is what I meant. Looks like you've got it under control though. If you're doing 2 water changes a week and you've still got 40ppm Nitrates you've got a much bigger problem than expected. How much water are you changing? Can you test your tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmillanm Posted October 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Hi, I tested for nitrates in the tap water the other day and it tested fine. Admittedly, even though I do 2 15-20% water changes a week and usually clean 1 of the filters (internal rio & external aqua 1000) I haven't moved my ornaments for months so I've just done a 40-50% water change and vacuum with the ornaments out and given the rio filter a really good clean. :bounce: Phew, it took ages LOL. Does anyone else with a Jewel rio, I have a 180 find that a lot of plant matter etc gets stuck both in the filter box and between the box and the glass? I wonder if that is 1/2 of my problem?? Anyways, will clean out my external filter tomorrow am and retest the nitrates as well ad the tap water. I hope the problem isn't too big, I'm alreay spending way to much time and energy trying to get it right... Thanks for your ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkLB Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Remember to be gentle with the media that the good bacteria live in. The less you disturb the biological filter the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Nitrate tests are notoriously inaccurate so I wouldn't be too concerned especially as nitrate is not harmful to the vast majority of fish, even in high levels. When the plants get growing well (as mentioned above :thup: ) they will use up the nitrates. I find that even with a healthy filter, a dead fish or excess feeding will rarely show much of a detectable rise in ammonia levels so I would guess that you could have had a hiccup in the bio filter to lead to an ammonia spike. Now that you have cleaned everything, you may have dislodged a lot of bacteria and that could lead to another small ammonia spike. In the mean time, don't overfeed, keep up the water changes and try not to add untreated tap water if you have a lot of chlorine in your tap water (just to prevent killing the bacteria that are trying to establish in your filter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmillanm Posted October 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 I seem to have somehow lost this post so will try again, sorry if it doubles up: Thanks Mark, I rinsed it all under the tap with hot water but only ever clean one filter out at a time. Because I did a 40-50% water change I also added a capful of cycle. I was planning to clean out the external filter tomorrow to try and get everything cleaned - that should give time for the good bacteria to get going again in rio filer I hope.. Thanks for your reply Jennifer - the fish all seem ok except my remaining big Mollie girl who still swims mainly at the top and a couple of neons with a small white lump on their fin or mouth. I just dont want it to deteriorate. Hopefully all will be a bit better when I next test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 The bacteria in the filter are alive so hot water and chlorinated tap water can kill it off. Even if you just clean one part of the media, the other part may not have enough bacteria to deal with all the waste in the tank which could result in an ammonia spike each time you clean the filter. It is good to gently rinse the filter media in a bucket of water taken from the tank and then pop it back into the filter as soon as possible to retain the live bacteria. I prefer not to clean the filter unless the flow noticeably decreases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Your filter is a biological filter rather than a physical filter. It is the bacteria in the filter that do the work and the other stuff in the filter is just a place for them to live. The gunge that you get building up assists in feeding the bacteria so the filter only works properly when it is patially full of gunge. You are not doing yourself or your fish any good by trying to keep your filter clean as it defeats the whole purpose of the thing. Clean the filter a bit if the flow is seriously reduced otherwise leave it to do the job it is there for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmillanm Posted October 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Ok, so now I'm getting a bit confused... I thought that the build up of 'gunk' ie: fish waste, plant bits etc in the tank & filter was what was causing me to have nitrates despite 2 water changes a week & ammonia/nitrites being fine. Is it somehow ok to have it in the filter sponges, box etc but not the tank? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Gunk is good as long as it is not slowing down the water flow. The bacteria live in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 OK, I think we've found a major part of the issue. Stop cleaning the filters! They should only ever be cleaned in tank water and never tap water as, as others have pointed out, this will kill the good bacteria you're trying to cultivate. Give it a few weeks without touching the filters and see what happens. I suspect you'll find this is a case of over cleaning having the opposite effect to what you expected. In a planted tank you shouldn't have to clean the gravel as the fish waste will become a mulm which will in turn be good for the plants. Stop cleaning but keep up the 20% water change twice a week and see how it goes. I suspect you'll find the tank settles down after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Nitrate is not a problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirt Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Ok this is off the top of my head so... Essentially, nitrates in the tank are the same in the filter. Ammonia is fish waste. Bacteria then eat this ammonia and excrete nitrites. New bacteria then form which eat nitrites and excrete nitrates. Water changes reduce nitrates. These two kinds of bacteria are found all over your tank from in your filter to the gravel and ornaments. When you wash in tap water the filter it kills the bacteria, or at least destroys the culture. This is why you use tank water to clean the filters so it does not kill the bacteria. The gunk is waste, ammonia, which is constantly being broken down. The gunk is there to feed the bacteria, the bacteria then breaks part of it down into nitrites to nitrates. It is okay to have this gunk anywhere in the tank the filter just makes your tank look cleaner. If your nitrates are still above say 10-20ppm then maybe do more water changes. I have a turtle tank and he (turtle) is a waste monster. Aparantly for every 1g of food they excrete 5ml of waste. I never have problems with nitrates. Once per week gravel clean and 20-40% water change. Depending on my mood. In theory if you have plants they also consume nitrates (to what I've read) so you shouldn't really have problems. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmillanm Posted October 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Thanks everyone, you must think I'm a bit silly bit I've honestly been trying to mAke things better with all this cleaning... Will keep with twice weekly water changes & start cleaning the filters in tank water but less often. :gigl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Only clean the filters lightly in tank water and only when the flow is severely restricted. Often a good flow can be restored by just cleaning the pipes. The gunge helps feed the good bacteria but it also helps with finer physical filtration. We don't think anything of you other than you are a beginner trying to do the right thing just like all the experienced people on here were once themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amtiskaw Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Don't clean the filters at all, unless flow has been reduced by gunk build-up. You should only need to clean them once, maybe twice, a year edit: Alan beat me to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmillanm Posted October 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Thanks. I've just retested and after my big water change nitrates are now down to between 5-10 and ammonia and nitrites look to be 0. In hindsight it may be lucky that I have two filters in my tank as I had the spare to fall back on if I kept killing the bacteria with my hot tap water... Just to check - I gather it is ok to rinse out the wool each week (in tank water) and replace when it can no longer be cleaned in my internal filter? Have a good w'end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirt Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 I guess so but it's a bit unnecessary. Because if its getting clogged after a week then youre either over feeding or somethings wrong. I havent cleaned my filter in 6 months and it still has decent flow. The bacteria on the filter wool wont die. Does your internal filter have any bio media like noodles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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