lduncan Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Rapidly lowering phosphate is not going to cause problems for corals. It would be like not taking someone out of a room full of carbon monoxide because it may stress them to the point of killing them. It doesn't make sense. Some zeovit additives are designed to supply what bacteria need Nitrifying bacteria are limited by food. The most important food is ammonia, the rest follow from that. Nitrifying bacteria can not take up acetate (vinegar salts) as a source of carbon. Their carbon comes from inorganic compounds like CO2 or HCO3-. I'm pretty sure that zeovit products don't contain ammonia, and the acetate which it likely contains has not effect on nitrifying bacteria. There is another bacteria species which exists in all our tanks which is capable of using acetate. Hint: It was discovered in 1987. The apparent reduction in phosphate when using zeovit is most likely not due to bacteria. I have a theory, but if I spelt it out now, I would be more than likely laughed away. On zeolites: There are two zeolites which have been shown to have higher affinities for ammonia in saltwater than the usual interferance of Calcium. They are: Clinoptilolite and Heulandite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Do we have a scientific forum yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 OK Layton, you win, I see it all now!! Actually I had it all wrong. The REAL way zeovit works is like this :- First you need zeolit ,thats are mineral stone which dont have any functions in seawater and are practicaly uselles in reef aquaria (same as you put sand in filter),then you need bacteria aditives ,is probably vinegar and food for bacteria what are probably rotten eggs .Finaly and last adition is hypoclorite (he gives nice white tone to the corals colours),after few years 3-4 of dosing vinegar,rotten eggs and hipochlorite you can get something like this: Complete system can be easyly done with home made products and are quite cheap. You need for 100 g of aquarium water (netto) 1 kg of sand 2 eggs Half litter of vinegar 100 ml of hyplochlorite Hobby Experience: 3 year,reef aquarium Actually folks I cannot take the credit for this post, I copied it from another board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 I knew that was coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 It takes more than zeovit to get a tank that good. Whilst zeovit does work ,Zeovit is a tool. It takes experiance and knowledge to get a top quality tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 I knew that was coming. Ha Ha but it was pretty funny, yes? Just felt I HAD to post it And by the way Reef and Iduncan, I know zeovit is not your cup of tea, so thanks for taking all my banter on the subject in good spirit! Great to be able to discuss even the more vexatious topics in a friendly manner. Cheers and out. (for now) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Ha Ha but it was pretty funny, yes? Just felt I HAD to post it And by the way Reef and Iduncan, I know zeovit is not your cup of tea, so thanks for taking all my banter on the subject in good spirit! Great to be able to discuss even the more vexatious topics in a friendly manner. Cheers and out. (for now) Don't worry, I don't disagree with some of what it has to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Interesting... http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=510427 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Oil of snake and ear of toad...... It will truely be funny if it turns out to be sugar/carbon source........ Its great to see a community that can bring its diverse resources to bear in identifying what is really involved, I give the entire zeo game about another 3 months, by then I think we will all publically know what is in the bottles etc........ I can see a shift back to DSB and lots of live rock, low bioloads etc etc coming..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 This link http://funpic.hu/swf/numanuma.html was posted recently on another board by a guy calling himself Zeohead. He is saying how much he appreciates the product, you can see his tank in the background. You will have to turn the sound UP Those with dial up might have to wait maybe 5 minutes for it to load, but it's worth it - Trust Me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 :lol: Those zeoheads aye, they're all crazy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Zeobac taking a hammering on RC, the best RC has can't find any bacteria. Wasp - if it isn't bacteria thats doing the job (my observation in the absense of any evidence that bacteria have ever been in the solution). what is it that works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Like i've said for a while now, adding bacteria is a waste of time. It really doesn't surprise me that they have found nothing other than a few soluble compounds (although not really conclusive). The key to the system is a couple of different bacteria strains (already present in our tanks in tiny populations), the zeolite, zeofood, and good maintenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Zeobac taking a hammering on RC, the best RC has can't find any bacteria. Wasp - if it isn't bacteria thats doing the job (my observation in the absense of any evidence that bacteria have ever been in the solution). what is it that works? What is it that works? well it IS bacteria. However I'll have to give Layton a brownie point, it is looking increasingly likely that his suspicions have been correct, that the zeobac is a bacteria enhancer, rather than actual bacteria. That is not conclusively shown yet though, the only bottle tested so far has already been in use 3 months, they need to test a new bottle. Course, Layton has to give me the brownie point back, because I was correct about the "rust" :lol: Why am I sure it is bacteria? I'll refer you back to this " http://pubwww.srce.hr/ftbrfd/41-157.pdf Summary The objective of this study was to achieve better efficiency of phosphorus removal in an enhanced biological phosphorus removal process by upgrading the system with different amounts of natural zeolite addition. The system performance for synthetic wastewater containing different carbon sources applied at different initial concentrations of phosphorus, as well as for municipal wastewater, was investigated. Natural zeolite addition in the aerobic phase of the anaerobic/aerobic bioaugmented activated sludge system contributed to a significant improvement of phosphorus removal in systems with synthetic wastewater and fresh municipal wastewater. Improvement of phosphorus removal with regard to the control reactors was higher with the addition of 15 than with 5 g/L of natural zeolite. In reactors with natural zeolite addition with regard to the control reactors significantly decreased chemical oxygen demand, ammonium and nitrate, while higher increment and better-activated sludge settling were achieved, without changes in the pH-values of the medium. It was shown that the natural zeolite particles are suitable support material for the phosphate-accumulating bacteria Acinetobacter calcoaceticus (DSM 1532), which were adsorbed on the particle surface, resulting in increased biological activity of the system. The process of phosphorus removal in a system with bioaugmented activated sludge and natural zeolite addition consisted of: metabolic activity of activated sludge, phosphorus uptake by phosphate-accumulating bacteria adsorbed on the natural zeolite particles and suspended in solution, and phosphorus adsorption on the natural zeolite particles. " So have we been mislead about how zeovit works? well at this point I just don't know. But will I stop using the system? Well NO. It is the best thing that has happened to my tank. Also I keep hearing that the zeovit results are the effect of better husbandry that zeovit recommend. Actually when I went zeovit, I changed nothing else, other than lowering the alkalinity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Course, Layton has to give me the brownie point back, because I was correct about the "rust" :lol: I'll give you a token 1/2 brownie point. Because I did say that iron in tanks was bound organically or in small amounts as Fe(OH)2. For what it's worth wasp, i don't think that paper has much relevance to how zeovit works. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Not being cheeky or anything, but you said I was wrong about the "rust" as you call it. And I quote - lduncan wrote: Wrong. Free iron ions in water will not end up as rust. You add rust. It's just that I was getting a little tired of being told I was wrong about things when you never had any evidence. I therefore asked you to explain why you said that and you could not. However rather than go on about it I let it go, it was a chemist who later chipped in with the evidence to show you were wrong. So now you're saying that paper has no relevence to Zeovit. You are wrong. Let's see your reasons. By the way, I'm pretty sure I already know the reason you will give, and if it is what I think you are going to say, it is wrong, and I will explain why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 You would believe Habib over me?! He didn't provide evidence, just said it. I said it was because that "free" iron was bound with organics or in small amounts as iron hydroxide, that was good enough explanation to me. However, it you were say to add an unchelated (unbound) iron solution to your tank, then yes you would get rust (hydrated iron oxide, iron oxide/hydroxide whatever you want to call it) precipitating. I also said the paper doesn't have MUCH relevance, not any. Mainly because the processes i think are going on are different to what is described there, and have some nasty by products. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Nasty bi products? - We have already discussed your "rust" claim. Habib just said it! Well it is not rocket science, and he IS a chemist. The processes are different? Please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 My theory: The metals contained within zeolites, including iron and aluminium provide one food source for metal eating bacteria, which create a biofilm around the zeolite, which in turn creates a micro environment for sulfur reducing bacteria (Desulfovibrio species) which produce (among other things) hydrogen sulfide. Which kills algae, and aparently some by products can interfere with the cadmium reduction method used for testing nitrate. Zeofood i think also plays a big part in promoting the growth of these metal eating bacteria, by providing acetate which is readily used by them. Of course, just a theory. Have fun researching that, there is some interesting stuff about those metal eating bacteria. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 OK, Good thinking. It is not what I thought you were going to say. Very interesting idea. Not heard it before, I'll have to look into it. Please take TWO LARGE BROWNY POINTS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 This metal eating bacteria...Is this the Geobacter you were rabbitting on about before! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 it's one group, there are others though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 So are you saying you like this Zeovit or think it may/might cause faulty test readings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 I'm thinking about possibly going there myself..... Unsure yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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