double cycle

[Bishop]

ok so I have a 50 L that was almost fully cycled and I read somewhere that it is good to clean the filter out of about 40% of its gunk every month of so but to leave most of it in there for the good bacteria.

Now me being me and rushing into things decided it was a primo time to change the substrate and add some soil for the plants.

I saved around 30% of the water and returned it to the tank.

So as I understand it I have reset the cycle of my tank and now my ammonia, nitrite and Nitrate have spiked because I have removed the substrate and cleaned too much of the filter.

But I am still reading of people cleaning out there tanks once a month and sometimes changing the substrate.

Is there something I have missed to this?

My main confusion comes from the fact that it has now been 3 weeks and I am seeing no change in the ammonia ect tests.

I was doing about a 30% water change every 2 days for the first week then everyday up until now.

Still no change in the readings.

:wtf:

I am using...

Stress zyme

Stress coat

ammo lock

and flourish excel.

I am testing with the API Master test kit.

Okay, so as well as that I have live plants in the tank and WAS injecting Co2 into the filter but it has dropped my PH all the way down to 6.4ish.**

After I did the substrate* change my KH dropped to 0. :excl: And the result was that the PH couldn't handle the Co2.

* the substrate I changed to was sterilised play sand. And Daltons aquatic mix underneath.

**PH from the tap reads high 8's

So if the sand is the issue and I need to change it for the little guys to have a better life, then I will have to go through all this again?

A lot to answer and I understand that I may have made some rookie mistakes here and laughing and pointing is welcome as long as you tell me what is going on.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

EDIT: I also have and outbreak of diatoms but that seems to be under control ish thanks to the my 2 otos.

Happy to provide any other information at any time.

[livingart]

hi bishop and welcome to the forum

[the-obstacle]

Chances are the sand isn't the issue. What did you wash the filter media with? Did you throw out/replace some of the media or just clean it and put it back?

[phoenix44]

Ammo Lock.

Do not use ammo lock if you want to cycle your tank.

Pretend for the next 4 weeks that it does not exist.

And also - Welcome!

[Bishop]

@ Living art: Thanks

@ The obstacle: just tap water I washed the media for a short time trying to achieve a 20% clean and left all the media in place.

@Phoenix: really? the person at the store gave it to me for cycling, in this instance I will trust your judgement ( tis the reason I am here )

Update: 20% water change ammonia is going down, nitirites are sky high.

should I continue with water changes every day?

[livingart]

good to see you made it

should I continue with water changes every day?

you can until your parameters level out, then tail down to 2 or 1 x per week

[Bishop]

Appreciate it

I have read sooo much on fish keeping and read something different every time, slowly coming to the conclusion there is no substitute for experience .

[livingart]

there are almost as many opinions as there are fishkeepers

the basics are the same though

lots of helpful fishkeepers on here

[Ice222]

@ Living art: Thanks

@ The obstacle: just tap water I washed the media for a short time trying to achieve a 20% clean and left all the media in place.

@Phoenix: really? the person at the store gave it to me for cycling, in this instance I will trust your judgement ( tis the reason I am here )

Update: 20% water change ammonia is going down, nitirites are sky high.

should I continue with water changes every day?

I second what phoenix says: don't use ammolock. From what I've heard, almost every ammonia locking product will skew your test results, making them pointless. The only one that I know won't skew the tests is Prime, but I've never had to use it for ammonia problems anyway. I wouldn't wash the media with tap water either. From what I know, unless if the buildup is messing with your filter's flow, the only media that should need washing is the sponges, and to change any filter carbon regularly. I don't know what kind of filter you've got, but I'd just leave any biomedia like noodles or bioballs alone, and even sponges should only be washed in a bucket of old tank water.

The way I see it, tapwater probably killed some of the beneficial bacteria, and changing the substrate probably took out a whole lot more to boot. It's not that you can't wash media at all or change substrate, but just got to be careful how you do it, and best not to 'overclean' any tank by doing both at once. You probably caused the crash by over cleaning, got the ammolock, and have been doing daily waterchanges due to the readings that was skewed by the ammolock. I'm not sure how big your waterchanges are, but considering that you are waterchanging every day, there's probably very little ammonia in the tank, and having too very little ammonia would mean that it would take longer for the tank to cycle.

Since you can't get accurate tests to gauge ammonia at the moment, I would recommend that you keep doing the water changes for now to be on the safe side. Stop using ammolock and try to remove it from your water as much as possible. If your tap water is quite similar to your tank water. I'd recommend 2x 50% water changes in the next 2 days (make sure the water is the right temp as not to shock the fish) in an attempt to remove the ammolock. Retest your water right after the waterchange and keep testing often during this time. Once you think that your ammonia readings are stable and accurate, you can decrease the frequency or amount of water to be changed. If you're only changing the water when ammonia readings are high, then the cycling process should go faster. when

[the-obstacle]

I agree with Ice - I would suggest that in future you wash your media in the tank water you've just removed for the water change too - that way you don't get the chlorine and what ever else in the tap water damaging the good bacteria. You're just trying to get the solids off the bio media while keeping as much bacteria as possible so washing the media until it looks like it's had the gunk removed in tank water is the way to go.

[Bishop]

wow thanks Ice/Obstacle, I guess I really needed somebody to explain things to me in laymans terms so I can understand why rather than just reading "do this" on the net somewhere.

Thanks.

[pink_fish]

Hi Bishop, and welcome!

+1 to the_obstacle & ice222

All that I'd add is:

1) Congrats on an awesome start to the hobby – it's really good to hear that you're researching and prepared to seek, evaluate and act on advice. From the sounds of it, you are going to be a great fish keeper!

2) On a more technical note, a rule of thumb with filters that has always worked for me is that you don't touch them until the water flow becomes reduced. I only clean mine out (i.e., rinse half of the media in tank water) when this happens – which means that sometimes my filters only get touched once a year! If the water flow is good, any 'gunk' that's in there will really be beneficial as it will be full of bacteria.

Keep us posted!

[Ice222]

Hi Bishop, and welcome!

1) Congrats on an awesome start to the hobby – it's really good to hear that you're researching and prepared to seek, evaluate and act on advice. From the sounds of it, you are going to be a great fish keeper!

That sounds about right! Not many people do much research into fishkeeping and it's easy to tell that you have done a lot of the reading yourself first. I only just started fishkeeping this year really. I'm pretty amazed at the amount of chemistry and biology it involves. Kinda wish I kept fish when I was in Highschool, would certainly have made me a lot more interested in those classes, now I wish I paid more attention then!

[Bishop]

Thanks guys, glad to find others as interested as I am. And happy to be part of the forum.

I like the technical side of fish keeping and the fact that the results are beautiful and right in front of you.

I had no idea fish keeping could be this intense and never thought in a million years my monies would go on water testers rather than my now neglected car.

If only I can decide what to do with my new tank :-?

Update: fish seem a bit happier Ammonia seems to be decreasing so that is a start.

[Bishop]

Just a little update to check I am on the right track...

Been doing some water changes for a while now, ammonia got quite high 6.0ppm ish and has started to drop, down to .50/.25.

My nitrites are max ( for my test sheet ) 5.0ppm and the nitrates are max also 160ppm.

The reason I post is because the nitrate and nitrite have been max ever since the substrate change and I don't wana hurt the fish but need the tank to cycle.

Will the nitrite only drop once ammonia is gone?

I am a little confused because everything I have read is from a standard cycle, not this "double" conundrum I have created.

Should I continue with the changes every 2nd day or should I take the fishies out and let it do its thing?

They have seemed okay for the last month but am noticing them getting stressed over the last 2 days.

This is one hell of a learning curve but I guess disturbing the cycle midway through isn't that common :roll:

[the-obstacle]

I'd treat it like a 'new' cycle. You started with ammonia, now you've got nitrite from the new bacteria that are colonising and some nitrate from the existing bacteria in the filter. Keep the water changes up and wait for ammonia and nitrite to go to 0.0 then do the water changes as often as needed to get the nitrate to a comfortable level.

I found my fish got the most stressed by the nitrite in the cycle process so this is probably the cause.

[Bishop]

Thanks, I just needed a sane mind to ease my worries.