Urgent Question about Leo's

[emaytiti]

Hi there.

Breeding leo's does it matter if the pair are related or not?

Can it cause problems if they are?

Your response would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Ruru]

For any species it absolutely matters whether the parents are related- and also how closely related they are. It is generally accepted that second cousins can interbreed without serious adverse affects, but anything closer than that and it's inbreeding. Inbreeding leads to an accumulation of deleterious alleles which otherwise would remain recessive.

A human example of recessive alleles is sickle cell anaemia, which in its heterozygous form is manageable and sometimes beneficial as it provides resistance to malaria. however, if two people with sickle cell anaemia mate, they have a 25% chance of producing offspring with two recessive alleles, which is fatal.

Unfortunately its common practise to inbreed animals in private collections in order to "strengthen" colour morphs or patterns (addressed as line breeding). Also for some species very few individuals were taken from the wild, and thus inbreeding to some extent is necessary to perpetuate the captive population. I'm sure are a few people on this forum who conduct line breeding and think nothing of it, but I do not advise it unless there is no other alternative.

[livingart]

i would hazard a guess that most of the leos i this country are related

i have done some line breeding and have not had a problem

except making cows 85cm at 2 years old

edit: black robins are a good example of a small gene pools survival

[emaytiti]

Lol, I dont know what to do.

For example im looking at getting a male and female from Hollywood Albany for breeding.

They said they think they are related, but im not 100% keen on getting them if they cant breed properly.

Im wanting to get a male and female around 8 months for around $500-$600, they seem to be the only ones around.

People that are experienced in Leo's what would you suggest and does anyone know anything about HFF Albanys Leo's?

Replies would be great asap as I am going to AKL tomorrow and need to decide.

Thanks

[repto]

bound to be related,you won`t be the only one with this problem,as L A said they are more than likely all related anyway as there has only been one main breeder supplying the market.others that have got them from him and bred there own are most likely using realated pairings.

[alanmin4304]

I understand that a couple of generations ago all the offspring of leos in NZ had the same father. NZ native lizards generally do not travel far and so the populations are very inbred or line bred depending on what view you take and they do not seem to have had any bad results from that. There are different colonies of the same lizards all over the place and each will have slightly different characteristics. The lizards that were retrieved at the border were not able to be returned because they did not know which of the slightly different colonies they had come from. The second lot were returned because a guy had done a study of them and knew from their individual markings exactly where they had come from. Call it line breeding or buy one from somewhere else and hope they are slightly less related.

[livingart]

scientific studies have shown that birds and reptiles have some resistance to inbreeding

[Perpin]

All leo's in NZ are related. It is fine to breed related leo's. Obviously new genes are always the better option but its not possible here. I have years of experience breeding leo's back in SA (including line breeding) and have never had a deformity. Obviously you would need to stop breeding a pair if you notice that they are producing deformed offspring.

[Navarre]

Line bred if it works

inbred if it doesnt

insert sound track to deliverence here ( dualing Banjos et al)

[Perpin]

Lol!

[Ruru]

scientific studies have shown that birds and reptiles have some resistance to inbreeding

It works in the wild because of purging (animals with genetic weakness dying before producing offspring of their own). This doesn't necessarily happen in captive situations, as I'm sure you can all agree that many of the factors that influence natural selection (predation, foraging ability etc) are relaxed or non-existent in captivity.

I imagine all NZ leos are inbred to an extent, but that's no excuse to conduct sibling parings (if that's the case here) when cousins or second cousins are available to breed with. What you could do is find someone else wanting to breed their Leos, work together and share the offspring.

Don't worry, I understand I'm writing to a crowd with decades more experience in breeding reptiles than me that have probably noticed no adverse effects from line breeding. I'm speaking as a student that has spent four years studying zoology, ecology, conservation and genetics.

The major risk of inbreeding is not deformities. From what I know, the first noticable signs of inbreeding will be reduced clutch size and hatching success- evident in Kakapo, Takahe and Black Robin. Using deformed offspring as a sign that you've taken line breeding too far is a mistake, since by then it is already too late. Inbred animals are also highly susceptible to disease; a single strain of influenza common in other species could wipe out an entire inbred species. They are also less able to cope with environmental changes, as seen in the greatly reduced viability of Takahe eggs when Takahe are transferred to northern areas.

I won't post anymore on this subject since I'm so outnumbered, but I will leave you with this extract from an article by Jamison, Wallis and Briskie (2006) on inbreeding and endangered NZ birds:

"the overwhelming evidence from dozens of studies (both theoretical and empirical) suggests that limiting the potential negative effects of inbreeding and loss of genetic variation should be an integral part of any management program of the many small, isolated, and highly inbred native bird populations found in New Zealand. Failure to do so could result in reduced fitness potential and greater susceptibility to biotic and abiotic perturbations in the short term and reduced ability to adapt to environmental

change in the long term."

[livingart]

don't stop posting on the subject ruru

i understand where you are coming from and agree entirely

line breeding can be effective if original animals have good solid genetics

and the person controlling the breeding is aware of possible problems that may arise

the leos are a case in point where original animals and their breeding shold have been recorded

and the offspring then sold on with a pedigree to ensure future owners could know wich dam line they had

[phoenix44]

I agree with you Ruru. I too have the same views, so you're definitely not out-numbered.

[Navarre]

I have to agree with you Ruru and LA.

When I discussed this with a promenent early breeder he did indeed intend to keep records such as those, but I am unsure if he ever did as his focus was re aligned on other things.

I have spoken with a number of other breeders and suggested a "stud book" for the same reasons.

easy to do phenotypically and genotypically with digital marvels like cameras these days.

Oppinhimer states " as Breeders it is up to us to be the Gaurdian of our chosen breed"

[livingart]

Oppinhimer states " as Breeders it is up to us to be the Gaurdian of our chosen breed"

[Perpin]

I personally only did it (in SA) to produce new morphs and I keep accurate records. I was fortunate enough to also have over 50 unrelated leo's to breed from as well. Unfortunately inbreeding/linebreeding here is NZ is impossible to avoid. As has been stated, not enough record keeping has been done to establish which are or are not related. It is my understanding that all leo's in NZ are related due to the lack of importation. I am I right? Please correct me if I am wrong.

[livingart]

as i understand it 1 male and 4 females were used to start off

females may have been related to male

clarification would be good

[Perpin]

How long ago was this original group broght in to NZ?

[alanmin4304]

They had probably been here for some time but had not been bred till 3 years ago I think. Correct me someone if need be.

[livingart]

repto will let us know

[repto]

the original stock came from orana park.Not sure of the dates but the park had some sort of financial dificulties in earlier times as I understand it and had to get rid of a few things.At the time no one wanted them and eventually They ended up at otorahanga kiwi house,they were bred in limited numbers and some may have ended up at akld zoo?Ivan at ti point had a good colony for a few years and none went to private collections that I know of?The numbers started to dwindle after a few years and it was found there were no males being hatched nd natural atrition,age etc had accounted for the rest.Now there were one or two in private hands and the old male was used to breed from with more expertise and determination other males were produced and the last few years are history and where we are at today.Thats the story as I know it,anyone that knows more is welcome to add to it and change where neccessary?

[livingart]

thanks, same as i understand it too

i believe the group that went to otorohonga were 5 animals

[Perpin]

Thanks for that repto. Are Ivan's leo's unrelated to the ones available on the market?

[repto]

probably through the old breeding male that was his?he may have got babies back as part of the deal for using the male?if so he will be breeding from them and maybe his old girls?I have not been up there for quite a while but he would know for sure.

[Perpin]

Thanks I appreciate the info