Vodka - a Warning!

[fishplants]

No, this isn't a post about the dangers of drinking too much!

I very recently had a bad experience with vodka in my community tank, and I would like to share this so others might avoid the same problems.

First, set the scene;

- I wished to perform a precautionary worming dose on my four new juvenile Blue Turquoise discus. After trawling this, and other forums, I settled on 2.5mg/l of Praziquantel (Prazi) in the form of Droncit tablets. In my 30l quarantine tank (QT) this equated to 1.5 tablets. QT running a single sponge filter.

- I crushed the tablets to a very fine powder with a mortar and pestle, and then added 48 degree water and mixed.

- I added the mix to the tank and monitored the fish very closely for four hours, no change in behaviour at all, except all four now were breathing from both gills (suspect that three of them had gill flukes).

- There was quite a lot of white sediment on the bottom of the tank.

- Waited 4 days and did a 50% water change (w/c), and then another one on day 6.

- Re-dosed the tank with same quantity of Prazi on day 6, except, this time I dissolved it (rather nervously) with a small quantity of Isopropyl alcohol. Monitored the fish for four hours and no ill effects (phew!). This time there was far less white sediment on the bottom of the tank.

- 50% w/c after four days and the fish looked great, breathing evenly and slower. Success!

After this success I decided to dose the smaller of my community tanks (180l), which is also my oldest tank (10 years) so is very well established, and well planted.

- Here enters mistake number 1. I used the same dose (2.5mg ai per litre), but this time I mixed it using vodka (unflavoured) based on Google results. So 8 Droncit tablets (160 litre net water volume) and about a dessertspoon of vodka.

- added this to the tank at 1500hrs on Sunday. At 2200hrs everything looked fine, water had cleared from the initial cloudiness and the fish all seemed fine (Discus, Siamese Algae Eater (SAE), 10 yr old female Bristlenose (BN), Cardinals, Striata loaches). There was very little white sediment.

- 0630hrs the following morning I put some flake in the tank (room light on only) as I do every morning, but noticed that the flake didn't move as it normally does, I concluded that there was a strong layer of surface algae (this should have been a warning - mistake number 2).

- went out and got home at 1130hrs and noticed immediately the tank was cloudy white, like I had poured some milk in. There were two dead Cardinals and all the other fish were stressed and breathing very, very rapidly. Some were gasping sporadically at the surface. The BN was very, very unhappy and was not able to stay attached to the glass. There was a very thick milky surface film.

- Suspecting (incorrectly) that the vodka had killed my biological filter and the fish were suffering severe ammonia poisoning, I tested the water to find ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, and nitrates 20ppm (a little high but nothing to worry about). I moved the filter outflow so that it disturbed the surface.

- I started and completed a 75% w/c, leaving the filter running the whole time so that the surface got really disturbed. After this the fish started to breathe slower and looked a little less stressed. The water was considerably clearer, but by 2100hrs it had become quite milky again. I did another 75% w/c and added an airstone.

- during this time I dived into Google and found this interesting site http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php.

- the next morning there had been no more deaths, and the water was clearer. By mid afternoon the water was Gin clear ('scuse the pun) and the fish were very happy. Did notice a wound on the BN though.

Based on this extremely stressful problem, and subsequent reading, these are my conclusions;

- vodka has been and is used primarily by salt tank owners, to get rid of NO3 and PO4 (Nitrates and Phosphates). The vodka is organic carbon, which allows growth of bacteria that absorb PO4 and NO3 very effectively. These settle on the surface and are removed by the protein skimmer. Note the low dose rates though, in the article above.

- I affectively dumped in a massive dose of organic carbon which created a massive growth of bacteria, and the aerobic bacteria absorbed nearly all of the available oxygen (O2) causing severe respiratory distress to my fish. The w/c's, and the surface disturbance from the filter outflow and the airstone, overcame this.

- I should have spent more time researching the use of vodka. I am normally quite 'anal' about researching, but I did not do it this time. Once I realised there was a problem, the issue was easy to find in Google.

- This highlights the dangers of anecdotal evidence that can be found on the internet.

- I will not use vodka in my tanks again. This mistake cost me the death of two Cardinals and a huge amount of stress. My BN has a wound about 12mm long which I suspect is a heater burn, she was so far gone that I believe she fell on the heater and was unable to move off it in her semi-asphyxiated state. She appears OK now, is eating and chasing everyone, so I hope it heals alright.

On a brighter note, I have since dosed my larger tank with the same quantities of Prazi, but mixed with 55 degree water instead of vodka, and had no problems at all.

Please note that I am not an expert in chemistry, biology or fishkeeping, and these are just my observations and conclusions. Please do your own research and form your own opinions.

Apologies for the long post!

[Navarre]

Thank you for your post.

This might mean however that smal "sips" of vodka may provide enough carbon to grow plants with?

is that right?

You have also not mentioned that carbon and alcohol and calcium carbonate ( the most common binding agent in tablets) may have interacted to intenisfy the reaction?

Perhaps maybe possibly?

Great post and notto long for even my short attention span

nav

[livingart]

good post

[Jennifer]

Look right in front of you and you will see a million sources of organic carbon - microbes are just waiting to take advantage of that fuel. Add sugar to your tank and you will get the same result - an exponential growth in all microbes, including pathogenic ones.

Regarding the plants, Flourish Excel is also a small carbon chain molecule (like ethanol) so it is readily available to plants, but unlike ethanol, it has antimicrobial properties*, thus inhibiting bacterial overload. It also has the added benefit of interfering with microbial oxidation of iron, thus keeping much of the iron in a reduced state so that it is accessible to plants.

*Flourish Excel is a 1.5-2.5% solution of glutaraldehyde (http://www.seachem.com/support/MSDS/Flo ... el.doc.pdf), a similiar chemical as the medical grade sterilisation agent Cidex OPA (http://www.aspjj.com/customer_support/u ... a_msds.pdf). This chemical has considerable hazards in its concentrated form.

[fishplants]

Thank you for your post.

This might mean however that smal "sips" of vodka may provide enough carbon to grow plants with?

is that right?

nav

No probs Nav.

I certainly won't use vodka again, CO2 is a good source of carbon that doesn't seem to cause any bacterial issues, and the bacteria that seem to proliferate with vodka use (apparently) absorb too much NO3 and PO4, reducing availability for the plants.

[smidey]

personally i think it points out the dangers of messing with the natural balance of the tank. I prefer not to add anything to the tank as adding something to the water has the potential to be disastrous. i have never added any chemicals apart from de-chlorinating solution when i was on town water & i have never had any issues that i can think of & the very few fish i have lost have been my mistake solely but leaving off the air pump or something similar.

[myfishybuisness]

what fish did you end up lossing because they were drunk i hope all your discus are ok now ( for worming i use furan 2 along with prazi hope this helpes)

[Ira]

So...Why did you think you were adding the vodka?

[fishplants]

So...Why did you think you were adding the vodka?

Do you mean 'what was I trying to achieve by adding the vodka to the tank'? If yes, I was not trying to achieve anything by adding the vodka to the tank, the vodka was purely a method of dissolving the Prazi - quote from initial post "I used the same dose (2.5mg ai per litre), but this time I mixed it using vodka (unflavoured) based on Google results".

I had hoped that was clear enough in my initial post?

[fishplants]

what fish did you end up lossing because they were drunk i hope all your discus are ok now ( for worming i use furan 2 along with prazi hope this helpes)

None, but I felt like finishing off the bottle myself!! The discus are fine thanks, and funnily enough they seemed the least affected during the ordeal - despite their reputation of being 'sensitive'.

[Ira]

Do you mean 'what was I trying to achieve by adding the vodka to the tank'? If yes, I was not trying to achieve anything by adding the vodka to the tank, the vodka was purely a method of dissolving the Prazi - quote from initial post "I used the same dose (2.5mg ai per litre), but this time I mixed it using vodka (unflavoured) based on Google results".

I had hoped that was clear enough in my initial post?

No, it wasn't really clear. "Based on google results." doesn't really mean anything. I can find results that say sleeping under a triangle will cure cancer and raise your IQ.

The only reason I knew of was to essentially fertilize bacteria, but you seemed shocked to find out that's what it did.

[fishplants]

No, it wasn't really clear. "Based on google results." doesn't really mean anything. I can find results that say sleeping under a triangle will cure cancer and raise your IQ.

The only reason I knew of was to essentially fertilize bacteria, but you seemed shocked to find out that's what it did.

Ira,

If you read the rest of my post, rather than that very small part of a large sentence, you will note that all I talked about was the use of Prazi to treat worms, and three different methods of dissolving it, and the results of those three different methods. The 'based on google results' was mentioned in the same sentence as 'mixed it using vodka' which I thought was explicit enough to indicate that Google searches (and threads on this forum BTW) suggest using vodka to mix/dissolve prazi. Nowhere did I say, 'I tried using Vodka to remove PO4 and NO3 from my heavily planted tank'.

Seemed shocked?! Yes, I was quite clearly shocked that the vodka would also fertilise bacteria and create a disastrous situation - that was the very essence and intent of the post.

The post was intended to share my bad experiences in the hope that others might learn from it, and avoid the same problem. I am very sorry if it didn't entirely achieve that.

[k1w1y2k]

Thanks for the warning, I to have read that prazi desolves best using vodka, and thought about trying it, but each time I ended up drinking the vodka and disolving it in water.

I think I read it on here that Hollywoods have a liquid wormer that has prazi in it, which would be great, because I to use the tabs.

[myfishybuisness]

i use the liquid one its a bit expensive but you can buy it from any vet for half the price , also try double the douse to 10mls per 80 litres

[k1w1y2k]

Cab you tell me what is the name of the liquid is that you can get from the vet?

[JazzyJeff]

Cab you tell me what is the name of the liquid is that you can get from the vet?

I think he may be referring to Droncit injectable maybe?

[Jennifer]

You used to be able to get Droncit injectable but I haven't seen it around for years and it isn't in the 2010 Index of Veterinary Standards (IVS) so it might not be licensed for veterinary use anymore.

There are at least a couple of dozen other liquid dewormers on the market that contain praziquantel, but they almost all contain other dewormers as well (e.g. ivermectin, oxfendazole, pyrantel) as well as a number of other additives.

The only apparent pure liquid praziquantel on the market is a large animal drench called Adtape. Details from the IVS are below:

ADTAPE

A7049 OTC

Merial Ancare

Contains 37.5mg/mL praziquantel. Packed in 5L jerry cans.

Action: Several modes of action are proposed for praziquantel, from the inhibition of carbohydrate metabolism to sensitisation of the tegument to proteolytic enzymes and induction of strong tetanic contractions.

Indications: Treatment and control of tapeworm heads and segments in sheep and horses and as an aid in the control of sheep measles.

DOSAGE: SHEEP: Tapeworm (Moniezia expansa), 1mL/10kg b.w. (3.75mg/kg praziquantel).SHEEP: Cysts, 1mL/5kg b.w. (7.5mg/kg praziquantel). Repeat after 1 month. HORSES: Tapeworm (Anoplocephala perfoliata), 1mL/15kg b.w. (2.5mg/kg praziquantel).

Withholding Times: MILK: Milk intended for sale for human consumption must be discarded during treatment and for not less than 35 days following the last treatment. MEAT: Sheep producing meat or offal for human consumption must not be sold for slaughter either during treatment or within 7 days of the last treatment. Horses producing meat or offal for human consumption must not be sold for slaughter either during treatment or within 63 days of the last treatment.

Special Precautions: For animal treatment only.

Other Information: Store below 30°C in a cool place with top secured, away from direct sunlight.

GENERIC REFERENCES: Praziquantel

I do not know what the solvent is in the Adtape suspension so cannot vouch for its safety with aquatic animals.

Also, since this product is apparently sold in very large quantities (5L), it could be unlikely that you would find it in anything other than equine/farm animal practices and those practices might prefer to stock other more comprehensive dewormers (that contain broad spectrum effectiveness for all worms, not just trematodes).