Time for the FNZAS to take action?

[Tyrannosaurus]

I wish I had thought about this before the conference, but what the heck, it is still relevant now. (I apologize if this came up in previous years, I haven't been around all that long.) But I thought that maybe it is time for the FNZAS to take some action to get those tiny 20 liter-ish tanks outlawed as 'goldfish' tanks in New Zealand. I've heard that in countries like Sweden and Germany, goldfish 'bowls' are illegal, but in New Zealand people are still selling tiny tanks and telling customers that the fish will 'grow into the tank'. Just today on TM I saw a 23 liter tank being touted as 'good for 3 goldfish'.

This is obviously wrong and I'd say should be a crime. If they were selling puppies and telling people they could live in a closet all their lives, something would be done. Nothing is done when retailers sell people equipment not suited to the fish they are buying and essentially guarantee the deaths of the fish involved. Not only does it not make any sense, but its tantamount to animal cruelty.

If any NZ body cares about the welfare of goldfish, surely FNZAS would be it.

Have we tried to do something about this practice in NZ as yet? If not, should we? It's not so much the fact that these small tanks need to really be outlawed (they're awesome for fighters) but people should know that you can't put goldfish in them, and pet stores that perpetuate the lie should be punished for doing so.

[DennisP]

I agree with what you're saying, but, is there any harm done to fish with stunted growth? - beyond adolescent (correct word?) age.

[spoon]

even if its sending a well rearched letter to pet stores asking them not to sell them on principle maybe a facebook page too

[N1CK]

I agree with what you're saying, but, is there any harm done to fish with stunted growth? - beyond adolescent (correct word?) age.

The body itself gets stunted and stops growing, but the organs inside of the fish do not which causes problems

IMO wouldn't it be better than rather banning the sale of goldfish for certain sized tanks (like ~20L) but to inform them of how large they can get and things like how to keep them healthy?

[phoenix44]

Agreed, I don't think the sale of nano tanks for the purpose of keeping goldfish for the entirety of their lives is good.

Needless to say, it would not stop people from purchasing a tank for minnows and then fill it with goldfish. Trust me on this one.

If shops here in NZ are selling shark cartilage as chondroitin supplements :evil: the goldfish saga hardly makes it to the top of the list.

[Tyrannosaurus]

I agree with what you're saying, but, is there any harm done to fish with stunted growth? - beyond adolescent (correct word?) age.

I believe the answer to this is yes. If you'd been locked in a small room that didn't allow you to grow properly and as an adult you were all, forgive the colloquialism, 'munted', I think you'd agree that damage had been done beyond stunted growth. I know fish aren't humans, but the analogy applies across all species. Anything kept in substandard conditions be it human, fish or bird, does poorly throughout their lives.

But the real issue is the fact that its impossible to filter a 20 liter tank with goldfish in it properly. I rescued three that had been kept in a tiny tank recently, (they've now found pond homes) and keeping up with them in a 20 gallon with a canister filter was hard enough. Goldfish must actually be incredibly hardy, but most people sold those silly bowls keep them in such horrible conditions that even goldfish can't tolerate them.

Other countries have already taken action on this issue, but NZ doesn't seem to care about goldfish, or even the fact that people are basically profiting by selling people products (fish) that will need to be replaced every few months because, for some unknown reason, (known to anybody who bothered to do five minutes of internet research as ammonia poisoning) they die.

[Tyrannosaurus]

Agreed, I don't think the sale of nano tanks for the purpose of keeping goldfish for the entirety of their lives is good.

Needless to say, it would not stop people from purchasing a tank for minnows and then fill it with goldfish. Trust me on this one.

If shops here in NZ are selling shark cartilage as chondroitin supplements :evil: the goldfish saga hardly makes it to the top of the list.

Some people may very well insist on torturing goldfish anyway, but the disturbing thing is pet stores are selling nano tanks as 'goldfish bowls'. People are being told by those they consider to be experts that it is okay to keep their goldfish in these tanks. That's a major problem.

[Tyrannosaurus]

The body itself gets stunted and stops growing, but the organs inside of the fish do not which causes problems

IMO wouldn't it be better than rather banning the sale of goldfish for certain sized tanks (like ~20L) but to inform them of how large they can get and things like how to keep them healthy?

I agree with the second statement, as I said in the latter part of my opening post, those nano tanks are awesome for fish like fighters who need solitary space but not gallons of it.

[Tyrannosaurus]

even if its sending a well rearched letter to pet stores asking them not to sell them on principle maybe a facebook page too

I think pet stores know. The thing is, getting them to stop selling small tanks as goldfish bowls, and as somebody else said, instead selling them as 'nano' tanks.

More education is definitely required. Facebook is a good idea too.

[DennisP]

I believe the answer to this is yes. If you'd been locked in a small room that didn't allow you to grow properly and as an adult you were all, forgive the colloquialism, 'munted', I think you'd agree that damage had been done beyond stunted growth.

Someone on here (can't remember who) stated that when fish grow, they release a hormone to stunt their growth. This is to avoid out growing small ponds etc that they have been stuck in. Eg: rock pool or large puddle etc. I would think that this natural phenomenon would cause them little harm.

Definitely not saying you are wrong, or that this cause is wrong, I am just genuinely interested.

[phoenix44]

So you are proposing a referendum in the training practises to ensure that pet stores, fish stores and any pet care company train their employees, and educate them about the appropriate conditions for the fish?

[Tyrannosaurus]

Someone on here (can't remember who) stated that when fish grow, they release a hormone to stunt their growth. This is to avoid out growing small ponds etc that they have been stuck in. Eg: rock pool or large puddle etc. I would think that this natural phenomenon would cause them little harm.

Definitely not saying you are wrong, or that this cause is wrong, I am just genuinely interested.

I will defer to wiser veterinary heads on this one. Perhaps Jennifer might weigh in if she sees this and give you the precise details of what it does to fish when we keep them in bowls far too small for them.

[DennisP]

Imho, some bad press on a pet shop that is notorious/known for selling small tanks would do the trick.

Be it newspaper, tv magazine, people will get the message, people will be awakened to the harm done to the fish and shops will probably ensure that they do not sell small tanks. So they do not become the center of bad attention.

No offence to animates (I have no problems), but imagine the effect some bad press on animates would have on shops.

Certainly worked for false advertising and Ribeena.

[Tyrannosaurus]

So you are proposing a referendum in the training practises to ensure that pet stores, fish stores and any pet care company train their employees, and educate them about the appropriate conditions for the fish?

You mean a national referendum? I don't think it need come to that. Laws are made every day that affect us all in much deeper and more profound ways than how we keep goldfish.

Actually, I think this could probably be handled under the current laws that require vendors not lie to clients about the suitability of their products. Those splish and splash nano tanks from Aqua One which claim to be goldfish tanks fall into that category quite neatly, as do those Marina products.

It's not so much the tanks that are the issue as it is the fact that people are outright lied to by businesses posing as experts. If a mechanic told people to put salt in their petrol tanks so he could make more money by fixing them when they broke, then we'd hear about it. As it is, people are lied to and told that goldfish can live in these bowls, and quite often end up coming in to buy 'replacements' every few months until they give up, blaming the goldfish for dying so easily, never knowing that they were effectively swindled out of their money.

[Tyrannosaurus]

Imho, some bad press on a pet shop that is notorious/known for selling small tanks would do the trick.

Be it newspaper, tv magazine, people will get the message, people will be awakened to the harm done to the fish and shops will probably ensure that they do not sell small tanks. So they do not become the center of bad attention.

No offence to animates (I have no problems), but imagine the effect some bad press on animates would have on shops.

Certainly worked for false advertising and Ribeena.

That is a great idea. Maybe a call to Target or one of those other consumer affairs programs is in order.

[firefish]

Its also the manufacturers that could change their packaging. There are a few tank boxes that show way too large fish in their tanks, overstocking and mixes that wouldn't work - if people go by the pictures then they'd have problems...

I think that its worse than petshops selling goldfish for small tanks.

[smidey]

i think that it is a battle like speeding drivers, it will always happen & you can't have a cop on all parts of all roads

[phoenix44]

That is a great idea. Maybe a call to Target or one of those other consumer affairs programs is in order.

It's a terrible idea. way to pull the trigger before any one has taken action, or has even had the chance to.

Tell me, has any one here written to the pet stores, fish stores etc and expressed concern?

1 phone call from a customer is all it took to get an entire line of cat toys scrapped in New Zealand. Sometimes it isn't what you do, its how you go about doing it.

A little diplomacy and tact will take you further than if you charged the battlefield with all guns ablaze.

There are a few tank boxes that show way too large fish in their tanks, overstocking and mixes that wouldn't work - if people go by the pictures then they'd have problems...

I think that its worse than petshops selling goldfish for small tanks.

I couldn't disagree more unfortunately. The answer is not more regulation, but perhaps lies in a little common sense and education.

[Moya]

Its also the manufacturers that could change their packaging. There are a few tank boxes that show way too large fish in their tanks, overstocking and mixes that wouldn't work - if people go by the pictures then they'd have problems...

I think that its worse than petshops selling goldfish for small tanks.

Oh god, firefish this is one of my biggest pet-hates! (pun! win!) I believe its the blue planet classic 50L that has a picture on the front that has: 1 large angel, a school of 12 cardinals, a red tailed shark, a siamese fighter, 2 killis, what I think is an electric yellow, and two reasonably sized loaches. Also the Juwel Rekord 60L has a beautiful mix of platys and tiger barbs and sharks on the front. I think about 25 in total. Now I'm all for making the tank look exciting, but it does make the job awfully difficult when you are showing it to people who are just starting out in fish keeping. Ive had someone get quite nasty to me because I said that no, they could not stock their tank in such a way. Perhaps she thought I was being a nasty deceptive sales staff? I'm not sure. Really I don't blame her so much. If I was in her position and was being told information contradictory to what was being very beautifully displayed on my new purchase, my 'sales person distrust' would kick in too. It seems that not much thought is put into misleading images placed on fish tanks, and that they really are just put together to look good. On another note, I have spoken to customers fresh into the fish keeping thing, who, once questioned, want to put their fish in a bowl. When told this is inadequate and refused the purchase of fish, it is not unusual for them to then try a different staff member and say they have a bigger tank. :evil:

This is always going to be a curly one, because there is still this prevailing attitude that "its a fish oh well nevermind". While we can certainly have better practices in place to make sure people are properly informed when they go to make a purchase, this does not mean that people will adhere to the recommendations made.

P.S Rabbit hutches are a bad one too. Some of the itsy bitsy cages that are advertised as rabbit hutches are just scary

[BikBok]

Those splish and splash nano tanks from Aqua One which claim to be goldfish tanks fall into that category quite neatly, as do those Marina products.

yep, I have a 21L splish and splash and the box lid clearly says "great for goldfish just like splish and splash" advocating two goldfish.

I bought it as a QT tank, short term housing for any new fish or sick fish.

Likewise my Hexy tank showed way too much fish on the box picture than would be sensible. Had I not been a person to ask lots of questions and research first i might have killed my first bunch of tropicals.

But those little UFO type plastic goldfish bowls are the ones that get me.. small, odd shape , no filtration. I hate seeing goldfish in those. What are they good for?

[SamH]

But those little UFO type plastic goldfish bowls are the ones that get me.. small, odd shape , no filtration. I hate seeing goldfish in those. What are they good for?

They're good for killing fish in classrooms really

[Bilbo]

I hate the the traditional goldfish bowl and support them being banned for the keeping of goldfish, especially in schools. I also hate seeing large fish crammed up in small tanks but I don't think we can outlaw small tanks any more than we can outlaw large fish.

Do we make a minimum tank size of 50ltrs, 100ltrs, 1000ltrs? How many fish in the wild have less than 5000ltrs of available space or 100% water change every 5 minutes.

We should be teaching people to make the right decisions rather than outlawing the wrong ones. How many people argue against goldfish bowls while trying to teach their budgie to talk in a 40cm cage or have a dog on a 2mtr chain.

[Tyrannosaurus]

It's a terrible idea. way to pull the trigger before any one has taken action, or has even had the chance to.

Tell me, has any one here written to the pet stores, fish stores etc and expressed concern?

1 phone call from a customer is all it took to get an entire line of cat toys scrapped in New Zealand. Sometimes it isn't what you do, its how you go about doing it.

A little diplomacy and tact will take you further than if you charged the battlefield with all guns ablaze.

I couldn't disagree more unfortunately. The answer is not more regulation, but perhaps lies in a little common sense and education.

Oh wait, someone said you work at Animates, Phoenix? If that is true, then you must know full well that there are people working in these stores who know better because you're one of them. If I'm misinformed and you don't work at Animates, then never mind.

Does it not strike you as criminal that pet stores, ie, stores that set themselves up as experts in pets are so completely ignorant of actual pet care, or worse, intentionally misleading as to perpetuate what are undoubtedly thousands of deaths a year? It's not as if this is merely a product stores are accidentally selling, it is a well known fact of fish care that you can't keep a goldfish in a 20 liter tank and two minutes of research online confirms the fact. I think it is naive to suggest that pet stores are simply the good guys who are a little ignorant. They make thousands of dollars from selling these tanks and that's why they do it. It is greed and nothing else.

A line of cat toys was pulled because people love cats and because a dead cat often means a hysterical owner. Goldfish, on the other hand, are treated almost as non entities.

I started this thread because although any one of us could go all vigilante and start contacting people, (as you suggest) I thought that the gravitas of the FNZAS behind this action might actually mean something happens. One person complaining is a fish nut. A national organization taking a stand against abusive practices is a force to be reckoned with.

[Tyrannosaurus]

yep, I have a 21L splish and splash and the box lid clearly says "great for goldfish just like splish and splash" advocating two goldfish.

I bought it as a QT tank, short term housing for any new fish or sick fish.

Likewise my Hexy tank showed way too much fish on the box picture than would be sensible. Had I not been a person to ask lots of questions and research first i might have killed my first bunch of tropicals.

But those little UFO type plastic goldfish bowls are the ones that get me.. small, odd shape , no filtration. I hate seeing goldfish in those. What are they good for?

Yeah, I use those little splish and splash tanks as individual fighting fish tanks, and they're awesome for that. Not so awesome for a fish that, if grown in the proper conditions would be longer than the tank is.

[phoenix44]

I most certainly do work there. But that is work. And this is not, and I am quite unsure how or why that is relevant. I also work at a bank, and that too is irrelevant :lol:

I personally disagree with goldfish bowls and tiny tanks for them, just as I disagree with whaling or cruelty to animals. But I'm not about to support greenpeace / PETA because of the way they protest and instigate change - or try to.

As I've said before, there is a way to do things effectively, and jumping the gun and rampaging like a charging rhino is not the way.

It strikes me as criminal for any business to willingly and knowingly provide incorrect advice, especially at the detriment of a living animal or other living being. However, I can assure you, going 'vigilante' will not achieve any thing. The fair trading act protects customers who feel they had been sold an item based on incorrect information.

I hope you understand that I cannot make claims on an employers behalf (whether mine or another); I am neither authorised to do so, nor would it be professional of me.

All I'm saying is if you want to instigate change, which you clearly do - there are better ways of doing it than contacting 'target' or staging a protest and getting all worked up about it.

To effectively address any problem in any business sector, always contact management first; actively listen to the explanation. If you are unhappy with that response, take things further by contacting the company owners. You will be surprised at the response you get most of the time.