Got a perfect nano!

[Morcs]

Always wanted to try marine. Was in Massey pets in their closing down sale and picked up a Heto HR-330 tank - it looked to be the perfect tank for starting a nano marine.

Its a well finished unit, 1 x PL11W bulb (will change for a marine PL), it has the whole filter unit built into the back, including space for a 50W Eheim Jager . The pump is 600Lph (20x turnover!) and has a multidirectional nozzle (though ill add my Eheim compact 300LPH pump also). Filter has 4 decent sized sponges and i bought 250g of substrate pro too. Got some coral rock aswell (about 2kg).

cost so far, a mighty $140!

Setup as a freshwater holding tank at the moment until ive done enough research to be confident in taking the plunge. Im sure its a lot simpler than is sometimes made out to be - well, a fish only marine anyway...

Whatdya guys think, this tank got potential? what are my livestock options with the size, filtration and lighting? id like to keep 1 clown at least

[Morcs]

Questions after my initial reseach

>With the current lighting, can i (or should i) grow soft corals?

>Would maintenance be easier if left BB, or put some coral sand in?

>Water change schedule and %, with say a pair of clowns, and no skimmer. (i live near a marina so will collect water in bulk)

>Is surface movement (aeration) in the tank a bad or good thing?

>Filter media? sponges and substrate pro good or bad? should i change? (i could possibly fit a skimmer in the filter like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230354515350&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

>worth running a phoszorb in the filter?

thats about it for now, thanks

[tetra_nz]

Interesting little tank! How many litres does it hold? Sorry if I missed it in your post :oops:

I've only had experience with SPS and LPS, so can't really comment much on soft corals. But softies usually require much weaker lighting than SPS and LPS, so your lighting system might be fine.

Maintenance definitely easier if left BB. Though I personally have a very thin layer of substrate that I vacuum regularly.

WC schedule will most likely be 20% per week with 2 false clowns. But in such a small tank I think you could easily bump it higher to keep water parameters stable.

Surface movement is a good thing, but make sure no microbubbles are formed as corals hate microbubbles.

Most in the marine hobby will advise to not use any biological media like ceramic noodles. They tend to trap detritus and cause nitrates to go up. But then again, if all you are keeping is fish and softies, then nitrates need not be kept at near 0 levels.

I run rowaphos in my sump. I think it does a great job at minimizing nuisance algae.

[A-town...]

bro you know that coral gonna shoot the ph up aye? might pay to take it out and just add once its actually got saltwater in there to start growing bacteria and altering ph buffering water ect

[Morcs]

Interesting little tank! How many litres does it hold? Sorry if I missed it in your post :oops:

I've only had experience with SPS and LPS, so can't really comment much on soft corals. But softies usually require much weaker lighting than SPS and LPS, so your lighting system might be fine.

Maintenance definitely easier if left BB. Though I personally have a very thin layer of substrate that I vacuum regularly.

WC schedule will most likely be 20% per week with 2 false clowns. But in such a small tank I think you could easily bump it higher to keep water parameters stable.

Surface movement is a good thing, but make sure no microbubbles are formed as corals hate microbubbles.

Most in the marine hobby will advise to not use any biological media like ceramic noodles. They tend to trap detritus and cause nitrates to go up. But then again, if all you are keeping is fish and softies, then nitrates need not be kept at near 0 levels.

I run rowaphos in my sump. I think it does a great job at minimizing nuisance algae.

thanks for your input. its a 33L. I dont think that includes the filter tho, so near 40L. So sponges in the filter are ok though? If the bio media isnt required then that frees up some room in the filter for something else.

bro you know that coral gonna shoot the ph up aye? might pay to take it out and just add once its actually got saltwater in there to start growing bacteria and altering ph buffering water ect

yeah, but the tank is empty at the mo, so its there for looks (sens got picked up this morn)

[A-town...]

mean ow! now go down to the marina and get some water!!!!

[tetra_nz]

If the tank is only 33 litres you will def need to keep up with the WC. Some people will say 33 litres is too small for even one false clown, but in my experience false clowns don't care much about swimming space.

I put filter floss/sponge in my sump only if I want to polish the water (e.g. after feeding frozen food, or after major aquascaping), and after a few hours or a day I remove the filter floss.

Most reef keepers do not have sponges or filter floss placed permanently in their system as they can quickly push nitrates up.

This is what I have permanently in my sump: heater, protein skimmer, purigen, and rowaphos.

With this setup I've been able to keep ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and phosphate all at undetectable levels with 15% WC every 2 weeks.

[livingart]

i have lots of live coral rubble you could throw in that filter

and some small bits of live rock as well if needed

+1 to all tetranz has said

[dreadbunny]

Thats an awesome wee tank, and a great price too! I've never seen them before. I've been looking at making a tank like that with a false wall, only bigger.

-Lighting is a little low, you might be able to get away with mushies. I have 36wats in my 34L and I only just get away with that for my zoanthids.

-BB Is definately easier, the amount of crap that collects on the bottom of my nano is annoying, and that was just live rock and corals! I have to siphon 2 x week.

-I change 30% a week, no skimmer, and I have 1 fish now. I would wait until your rock is well cycled though before adding the fish.

-The more surface movement the better

-Stay away from sponges, they will only bump up your nitrates. Let your rock do the work, though a little filter wool can be handy, and maybe phoszorb. Haven't tried it myself, I used the stuff Green-X that is now sold by fluval, but didn't really notice much difference.

HTH

[Morcs]

So with marine filtration the key is to not have 'conventional media' ?

I could fit a skimmer into the filter then, like the one i linked to in an above post?

So the rock will cure and become live on its own if i were to fill with salt water?

thanks guys, your input is great

Just put my eheim pump in. 900LPH in 3 directions. no dead spots i think. thats some good circulation i reckon. 30x turnover

[Morcs]

Just ordered an air powered skimmer to go in the filter. for a total of $22 SHIPPED from the US, i thought its worth a punt...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nano-Air-Wood-Protein-Skimmer-/370391802315?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563d1261cb#rpdId

[tetra_nz]

Wow $22 is a really good deal for ANY sort of marine equipment :bounce: ! Will be interested to see how it performs!

I think the problem with "conventional" biological media used for FW fish is the ratio of aerobic to anaerobic bacteria. Media like ceramic noodles provide a lot of surface area for aerobic bacteria, but not for anaerobic bacteria. Live rock, on the other hand, provides surfaces for aerobic bacteria as well as anaerobic bacteria. Therefore using live rock allows the removal of nitrates by anaerobes as quickly as they are produced by the aerobes.

But honestly though, if you are only going to keep fish and soft corals, both of which can tolerate nitrates, then I wouldn't worry about using "conventional" biological media as the main form of bio-filtration.

As for your rock, if the rock you bought didn't came straight out of someone else's tank, it will not become "live" simply by your adding salt water. You will need to get a piece of rock with goodies such as coralline algae, pods, sponges and other inverts; in time, these organisms will spread onto your other rocks.

[Morcs]

Wow $22 is a really good deal for ANY sort of marine equipment :bounce: ! Will be interested to see how it performs!

I think the problem with "conventional" biological media used for FW fish is the ratio of aerobic to anaerobic bacteria. Media like ceramic noodles provide a lot of surface area for aerobic bacteria, but not for anaerobic bacteria. Live rock, on the other hand, provides surfaces for aerobic bacteria as well as anaerobic bacteria. Therefore using live rock allows the removal of nitrates by anaerobes as quickly as they are produced by the aerobes.

But honestly though, if you are only going to keep fish and soft corals, both of which can tolerate nitrates, then I wouldn't worry about using "conventional" biological media as the main form of bio-filtration.

As for your rock, if the rock you bought didn't came straight out of someone else's tank, it will not become "live" simply by your adding salt water. You will need to get a piece of rock with goodies such as coralline algae, pods, sponges and other inverts; in time, these organisms will spread onto your other rocks.

Thanks

Guess id better replace the fresh water with salt water quite soon, and grab some live rock, and let the tank run for a while then.

Would you recommend i get more rock?

Might avoid corals and just go for a pair of clowns to begin with. No room for anything else such as a cleaner shrimp or fire goby?

I plan on getting a 60L drum or something to fill up and store in the garage. Ill grab a sample of my local marina water and test it at work on tuesday too.

[tetra_nz]

Thanks

Guess id better replace the fresh water with salt water quite soon, and grab some live rock, and let the tank run for a while then.

Would you recommend i get more rock?

Might avoid corals and just go for a pair of clowns to begin with. No room for anything else such as a cleaner shrimp or fire goby?

I plan on getting a 60L drum or something to fill up and store in the garage. Ill grab a sample of my local marina water and test it at work on tuesday too.

Depends on what type of rock you got. If it's quite porous (feels light compared with other rock) then it would be enough to support 1 or 2 clowns. I think it would be a good idea now for you to fill the tank with salt water, and get a piece of live rock from somebody to kick start your tank.

If you go for a pair of clowns (an actual pair, as opposed to just any 2 clowns), I would say you are at your stocking limit. A fire goby is probably too timid to thrive in a little tank with an established clown pair. I think you could add a cleaner shrimp provided you don't mind your stomatella (beneficial snails) population being massacred

What is marina water? Is it natural sea water?

[Morcs]

Depends on what type of rock you got. If it's quite porous (feels light compared with other rock) then it would be enough to support 1 or 2 clowns. I think it would be a good idea now for you to fill the tank with salt water, and get a piece of live rock from somebody to kick start your tank.

If you go for a pair of clowns (an actual pair, as opposed to just any 2 clowns), I would say you are at your stocking limit. A fire goby is probably too timid to thrive in a little tank with an established clown pair. I think you could add a cleaner shrimp provided you don't mind your stomatella (beneficial snails) population being massacred

What is marina water? Is it natural sea water?

Yep natural sea water. and being a marina its quite easy to collect from there.

id settle for just one clown and maybe a shrimp if it meant maintenance would be easier...

Just drained tank and removed media from filter. If i have time today ill get a drum from mitre10 and go collect some seawater!

This is all very exciting. the joys of being a complete noob again. Love it.

My only concern with this tank is if the main powerhead were to blow. finding a replacement would be pretty difficult. anyone know who the distributor for Heto is? ill buy a spare. i also want to compare the powerheads that the Juwel rekords use as it looks very similar in shape and fitting...

I also have an aquaclear 70 powerhead (1800lph), is it worth running this for a wee while in conjunction with the other powerheads to clear the rock out?

[spoon]

a bit of diy with that aquaclear u'd have a mean return pump.

to clarify the filtration with live rock the live rock is your filter it holds the bateria that converts amonia to nitrite ---> nitrate but because its so porous it has a large surface area that has low or no oxygen and can support anarobic bacteria that convert nitrate. the air powered skimmer is a good idea asthe more pumps and things you have inside your tank the bigger the chance of it getting too hot .though this wont be a problem for a while now i would suggest adding a fan or two to the hood if the lights dont already have one another thing to consider is making an automatic top off system as 33l of water (less by the time you have everything in there) will evaporate very quickly and in such a small volume of water the salinity will swing wildly unless your prepared to do a couple of manual top ups a day. as you are limited ofr space in the rear compartment of your tank i'd suggest making an ATO unit using a battery powered airpump and a float switch from ebay or jaycar the gravity fed ballcock type you can get on ebay will be way too large and require the resevoir to be mounted higher than the tank

[Morcs]

Had a good yarn with Stu at HFF albany. He gave me lots of good advice too.

Not going with seawater as the marina especially probably has heaps of bad stuff coming off the boats (diesel)

So mixing my own water. bought two of those 20L plastic containers and some red sea salt. Stu pointed out that I have DI water at work (our fishrooms water supply) and went and filled my containers up. Got some more coral rock too. Just waiting for temp to come up so i can measure salinity.

Overheating shouldnt be a problem? 1 x 11PL tube, and ill probably adjust it down to about 24 to account for heat building.

So basically ill always have 40L of premade water on hand

Where do i go from here? allow it to sit, circulate etc for a couple of days, then?

[tetra_nz]

Had a good yarn with Stu at HFF albany. He gave me lots of good advice too.

Not going with seawater as the marina especially probably has heaps of bad stuff coming off the boats (diesel)

So mixing my own water. bought two of those 20L plastic containers and some red sea salt. Stu pointed out that I have DI water at work (our fishrooms water supply) and went and filled my containers up. Got some more coral rock too. Just waiting for temp to come up so i can measure salinity.

Overheating shouldnt be a problem? 1 x 11PL tube, and ill probably adjust it down to about 24 to account for heat building.

So basically ill always have 40L of premade water on hand

Where do i go from here? allow it to sit, circulate etc for a couple of days, then?

Let it sit for a few days to make sure everything is working properly, check if tank overheats with your current setup, and get an idea of the evaporation rate. I really don't think overheating would be an issue at this time of the year. I also don't think evaporation will be significant since the tank has a hood.

When you are happy that everything is working properly, I think you can chuck in a piece of live rock. :bounce:

Oh and just to add, I think artificial seawater is much better if you have access to pure water and a good salt mix. You don't have to worry about malicious things being introduced into your tank!

[Morcs]

Let it sit for a few days to make sure everything is working properly, check if tank overheats with your current setup, and get an idea of the evaporation rate. I really don't think overheating would be an issue at this time of the year. I also don't think evaporation will be significant since the tank has a hood.

When you are happy that everything is working properly, I think you can chuck in a piece of live rock. :bounce:

Oh and just to add, I think artificial seawater is much better if you have access to pure water and a good salt mix. You don't have to worry about malicious things being introduced into your tank!

I tested the DI water. readings were:

PH:6.8

Ammonia: 0.25ppm

Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 10ppm

GH: 0

KH: 0

Phosphates: 0

Now the nitrates are a worry. the drum was nearly empty, so ill fill it up on tuesday and retest. The ammonia is also a worry in that water supply, but in this case, might be beneficial for my tank and will give the cycle a kick start, so in theory i just sit and wait?

Water is heating up, currently at 23, aiming for 24-25. SG currently is 1.025 so hopefully will drop into the middle of the ideal range once a bit warmer (meaning my mixing ratio was pretty good)

Had a good read on nano-reef.com about water changing, so going to get another powerhead, a couple of probe thermometers and another heater to premix and preheat the new water in the containers before adding to the tank, but I wont have to worry about doing any water changes for a while eh.

Also decided how to have my filter setup. in the middle media compartments, going to have two sponges, carbon (bio chem zorb better in this case?) and then floss in the first compartment, followed by my skimmer in the second compartment. To prevent nitrate build up in the mech media, weekly i will pull the sponges out and clean, leaving them to dry out (and kill any bacteria) and cycle with two other sponges doing the same thing. Good idea?

Today I ordered myself an API saltwater master test kit, a Marine blue PL bulb, and an airpump to run the skimmer too. Got more dead rock too, total now of about 3kg.

[tetra_nz]

Yea I think nano-reef is an awesome resource, I'm obsessed with that website LOL.

You're right I don't think you will need to worry about WC for a while.

After you're happy that everything is working fine and you've achieved the appropriate salinity, I think your priority would be to cycle the tank. I strongly suggest you pick a piece of live rock off somebody as this will speed things up tremendously, not to mention introduce some nice critters! Organisms like coralline algae wont grow if they weren't introduced to your tank in the first place!

So will this be a fish only tank? It would be easier to give advice if I knew which direction you were headed

[spoon]

just rinse your sponges weekly under tap water no need to dry them out

[Morcs]

Yea I think nano-reef is an awesome resource, I'm obsessed with that website LOL.

You're right I don't think you will need to worry about WC for a while.

After you're happy that everything is working fine and you've achieved the appropriate salinity, I think your priority would be to cycle the tank. I strongly suggest you pick a piece of live rock off somebody as this will speed things up tremendously, not to mention introduce some nice critters! Organisms like coralline algae wont grow if they weren't introduced to your tank in the first place!

So will this be a fish only tank? It would be easier to give advice if I knew which direction you were headed

Fish only. At the moment probably set on a cleaner shrimp and a single normal clown.

I read somewhere about slowly increasing the lighting for uncured rock... from 2hrs per day increasing half hour per day until normal photoperiod is reached. Any sense in this?

Got a tiny piece of LR i can steal?

just rinse your sponges weekly under tap water no need to dry them out

True that! chlorine is now my friend!

[tetra_nz]

Fish only. At the moment probably set on a cleaner shrimp and a single normal clown.

I read somewhere about slowly increasing the lighting for uncured rock... from 2hrs per day increasing half hour per day until normal photoperiod is reached. Any sense in this?

Got a tiny piece of LR i can steal?

If you were keeping nothing but the clown then everything would be so easy! It would just be like keeping hardy FW species! But since shrimp are sensitive to nitrates, I would say that you need to be at least a little careful about nitrates. Giving the sponges a good rinse weekly sounds like a good idea to prevent the nitrates from creeping up. The more often you rinse the sponges, the better.

Morcs I would be more than happy to spare a piece of LR, but unfortunately my current tank has a minimalistic aquascape design, and in order to achieve that I had to epoxy all my rock together so effectively, I have one big strangely shaped rock in my tank .

I all honesty I think your tank should be super easy to maintain . Without corals you don't have to worry about lighting, dosing etc. If you do experience an algae bloom it's pretty easy to just take the pieces of rocks out, give them a good scrub (with salt water of course), and put them back without much trouble.

[Morcs]

If you were keeping nothing but the clown then everything would be so easy! It would just be like keeping hardy FW species! But since shrimp are sensitive to nitrates, I would say that you need to be at least a little careful about nitrates. Giving the sponges a good rinse weekly sounds like a good idea to prevent the nitrates from creeping up. The more often you rinse the sponges, the better.

Morcs I would be more than happy to spare a piece of LR, but unfortunately my current tank has a minimalistic aquascape design, and in order to achieve that I had to epoxy all my rock together so effectively, I have one big strangely shaped rock in my tank .

I all honesty I think your tank should be super easy to maintain . Without corals you don't have to worry about lighting, dosing etc. If you do experience an algae bloom it's pretty easy to just take the pieces of rocks out, give them a good scrub (with salt water of course), and put them back without much trouble.

Well might scrap the idea of a shrimp to start with then, maybe a clown or two and some snails for cleanup.

A question i do have though, is with the setup I have and stocking im planning, once the system is matured and balanced, is there any reason to do water changes (if i have a skimmer that works ok) other than to rectify water params? in theory if params (including nitrates) are always at 0, what are water changes doing?

No worries re live rock, im sure someone has a small piece somewhere

[tetra_nz]

Well might scrap the idea of a shrimp to start with then, maybe a clown or two and some snails for cleanup.

A question i do have though, is with the setup I have and stocking im planning, once the system is matured and balanced, is there any reason to do water changes (if i have a skimmer that works ok) other than to rectify water params? in theory if params (including nitrates) are always at 0, what are water changes doing?

No worries re live rock, im sure someone has a small piece somewhere

Yea def don't add the cleaner shrimp until parameters become stable. Cleaners are very hardy, but don't tolerate parameter swings. Clowns should be fine; they are just so hardy and can tolerate all sorts of crap.

Reason why WC should be done on a stable system in the absence of nitrates, phosphates, and other commonly feared chemicals is because there are many things that we don't test for that could otherwise build up. Using a FW analogue, it's kinda like why WCs are vital for a tank of juvenile discus even when there are no nitrates if you know what I mean...

Nano reef keepers also use WC as a chance to "top-up" elements like calcium, corbonates, magnesium etc. Even though you don't have corals, keeping these elements in check is still important (e.g. for the stabilization of pH)