Varanophile Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Any MAF guys browsing this forum? Have a look at this.....revolutionary!! http://www.freewebs.com/radicalreptiles ... gforms.htm just cut and paste it and change the details...or pay someone to do it for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted December 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 ask yourself: why is there not a system like this in NZ? Is it because: a) MAF would have to admit that they failed to keep records of species that were legally imported into New Zealand and hence have no idea where to start b) They have no interest in things being black and white as they will be unable to justify their jobs c) They lack the expertise to create said system or my personal favourite d) all of the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaNs Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I can tell you from experence that MAF read this forum and the others. Can't open the link on my phone but will look later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted December 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 A system like this generates revenue. This revenue can be used for salaries of the officials policing it, wildlife conservation projects, or research. The Otago skink will be extinct in the wild in the next 10 years due to rodent predation unless $$$ are poured into saving it. Seriously, I think reptile keepers in NZ have the right to be pretty annoyed at the lack of accountablity, transparency and simple common sense from MAF. You are allowed to import cats that kill massive numbers of native fauna but they can't even tell you what is legal or create even a basic system to legitimise the reptile hobby. The exotic reptile hobby serves to educate people that reptiles are not cold and slimy or vicious. It aids in the conservation of native reptiles as people then see them as worthwhile. Policing animals that should not be in the country because they are a danger to native animals and prosecuting smugglers is the job of the authorities like MAF. Losing/misfiling/overlooking/ignoring an import permit for green iguanas, letting them be sold for several months despite them a) being publicly advertised and b) numerous articles on the iguanas appearing in national newspapers such as "The Herald", and then suddenly making them "unwanted organisms" and gassing them is pretty bad form. Some of those confiscated were in zoos. Iguana iguana is a herbivorous species from tropical countries. It can not metabolise native trees/plants with the exception of dandelion and puha. Its eggs will not hatch in NZ due to soil temp. The claim about them having the "Mt Pleasant" strain of Salmonella and this strain not previously being in NZ is rubbish. This was just used as the justification for outlawing them. The immense ammount of PUBLIC money used to kill these animals was just wrong. The fact that paperwork has come to light after the fact detailing that these animals were actually legally imported, but the permits "lost" is not suprising to those of us that understand the modus operandi of MAF. On the bright side though, they did manage to locate the paperwork for the iguanas at Napier Zoo, as it was stapled to the Zoo Licence....well done boys:) MAF guys...give us a list of what we can keep and start a licensing system. I'd set it up for you, but you couldn't afford my salary. Unless people such as those on this forum create pressure then these guys will just do what they have always done. These guys work for us. We pay their wages with our taxes. We deserve better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I am having alot of problems getting the powers that be to tell me yes or no as to the status of aquatic plants in NZ so I can imagine that getting the status of reptiles would be even harder. Having spent over 30 years working as a bureaucrat in Local Government I believe I have some understanding of bureaucracy and these people should have answers and be prepared to give them in writing and stick to them so that people know what is legal and what is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillz Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 As long as idiots continue to smuggle frogs and lizards into New Zealand for there own financial gain and over inflated egos we will have to live with the fact that our hobby will be looked at suspiciouly.Yes MAF dealt with the iguana issue poorly , but you could say a stern message needed to be sent those responsible, shame there wernt any convictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 the iguannas were the only ones to suffer??I am more concerned about lizards and frogs leaving NZ than coming in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 As long as idiots continue to smuggle frogs and lizards into New Zealand for there own financial gain and over inflated egos we will have to live with the fact that our hobby will be looked at suspiciouly.Yes MAF dealt with the iguana issue poorly , but you could say a stern message needed to be sent those responsible, shame there wernt any convictions. You're missing the point. There is a permit for the iguanas. MAF does not have a record of it, they were pretty bad at keeping things like that back then for fish, plants, reptiles etc. The Iguanas should not have been killed. If there were accurate records then there would be no point in smuggling. Smuggling is viable as the whole hobby in NZ is grey, nothing is black or white. If there was a list of species that could be kept then people can easily tell what is kosher and what is not. Why not just admit that they mucked up and start fresh? There are no import permits for Beardies, if you owned a beardie "chillz" then technically MAF could prosecute you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillz Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 The MAF handling of the iguanas was a shambles i agree. I still find it a little hard to believe that the iguanas were "kosher" . This would be difficult for MAF to prove without DNA from the original animals. MAF's mandate is to ensure the biosecurity of the country, not to advance our hobby. We have made some serious stuff ups in New Zealand and I agree with the cautious approach. Smuggling will unfortunately always be viable due to the commercial trade in wildlife, in and out of New Zealand regardless of the import restrictions in place. This is seen in countries such as the USA and Europe where the demand for more variety/rare species fuels a huge international smuggling trade. How do you prove your tortoise or lizard wasnt the result of poaching? Some form of clarity from MAF as to what is currently "kosher" would be great i agree. In 50-100 years we may see the effect that the large numbers of red eared sliders are having on our ecosystem, they may not be capable of breeding but the food intake of a turtle over 40 odd years will be interesting to see. As the number of water dragons etc rises , will they to be released or dumped by ignorant/negligent owners, water dragons like birds............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 The other thing that is confusing is the status of reptiles. Because a reptile was legally brought into the country with the correct permits and paper work does not mean that it was legally released into the pet trade. It may be legally here but only legally kept in licenced zoos. So what about those that were brought in legally before paperwork was required. It would be very useful if Maf were to put out in writing what reptiles can legally be kept in private hands and which cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 well to stop the issue of people letting their reptiles go into the wild is the idea of the permit system... you cant have a reptile unless you have a reptile and once a year you get a visit to make sure the reptile is healthy and still with you... if you sell them then it has to be to another person with a licence and the details are recorded and sent in... if you go round and the reptile isnt there then big big fines... the permits could easily create revenue... just some ideas need to be thort of and then acted on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 you cant have a reptile unless you have a reptile i totally agree with that statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 You are so subtall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 i meant you cant have a reptile without a permit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 water dragons like birds............. I have 4 finches in an enclosure with many adult waterdragons that says otherwise, have watched the finches feeding next to them, so far the dragons wont eat the unwanted finch eggs either cant be because they are to well fed cause when i take live locusts in there to feed out(maby once a week) all hell breaks loose. Also saw them shred a stray wild mouse that got in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varanophile Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 MAF's mandate is to create a system and keep accurate records. They have failed on both counts. If there was a clear cut list of what was allowed then smuggling would be less lucrative. There is demand in Europe and the USA for rarer species, especially CITES...I agree with you there. Paradoxically though, the best chance many of these species have is from there husbandry and breeding techniques being mastered by hobbyists. In my opinion a good hobbyist is at least equal to any science graduate working a zoo in terms of mastering the care and breeding of an animal. Waterdragons and red eared sliders are not a big threat. This is a PR beat-up. Sliders are mainly herbivourous/insectivorous and the w.d's also eat bugs. Most of the native skinks that they would compete with, and all the frogs pretty much have been decimated by rats and stoats and cats. Instead of worrying about w.d's and sliders lock your cat in at night. My torts and lizards are born and bred kiwis thanks. How come you can still buy rainbow lorikeets in auckland and not blueys???? ridiculous. The MAF handling of the iguanas was a shambles i agree. I still find it a little hard to believe that the iguanas were "kosher" . This would be difficult for MAF to prove without DNA from the original animals. MAF's mandate is to ensure the biosecurity of the country, not to advance our hobby. We have made some serious stuff ups in New Zealand and I agree with the cautious approach. Smuggling will unfortunately always be viable due to the commercial trade in wildlife, in and out of New Zealand regardless of the import restrictions in place. This is seen in countries such as the USA and Europe where the demand for more variety/rare species fuels a huge international smuggling trade. How do you prove your tortoise or lizard wasnt the result of poaching? Some form of clarity from MAF as to what is currently "kosher" would be great i agree. In 50-100 years we may see the effect that the large numbers of red eared sliders are having on our ecosystem, they may not be capable of breeding but the food intake of a turtle over 40 odd years will be interesting to see. As the number of water dragons etc rises , will they to be released or dumped by ignorant/negligent owners, water dragons like birds............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 MAF's mandate is to create a system and keep accurate records. They have failed on both counts. If there was a clear cut list of what was allowed then smuggling would be less lucrative. I emailed David Carter (Minister of Agriculture, Biosecurity and Forrestry) about this some time last year and [eventually] got a typically bureaucratic response, and in PDF format too so its not easy to copy-paste text (same deal when they were replying to me regarding the Leopard Tortioses, do MP's still use typewriters or something?!). Basically said they're working on compiling a list but could not or would not disclose anything useful until it was complete, probably not before the end of 2010. PM me with an email address if you want a copy of the PDF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 you will never get a decent reply from any politician as they have a team writing their responses who are careful not to put anything in writing that can be used as a fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 and isn't it great that we pay them so much to do that.... I'd try contact Rodney Hide about it as he's pretty much been given the job of "minister of bureaucratic reduction". It seems to me that DOC, MAF and ERMA are all trying to do only slightly different jobs with big areas of overlap, and neither knows what the other is doing. I'm sure they could operate far more efficiently as a single entity, at the very least it would reduce the number of CEOs, PAs and other paper shufflers needed by 2/3..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillz Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Any organism which becomes wild will have an effect on native popultations. Do we want Water dragons to pick off the last of our endangered skinks and geckos? The ban on blue toungues is a Auckland Regional Council decision, not MAF. I aggree that hobbyists can do alot for the development of husbandry techniques for captive animals, although this is not generally the motivation for keeping the animals. Money, money, money....... Many people dont get into natives because of the permitting system as well as the fact that they cant make a buck out of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky2 Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Any organism which becomes wild will have an effect on native popultations. Do we want Water dragons to pick off the last of our endangered skinks and geckos? quote] Are you sure they would? Got delicata running around in the big enclosure,unmolestered. dont see many of our geckos n skinks hanging around freshwater waterways. I would of thought the tuatara would of made more of a dent in them. That is before it got taken out by the feral rats ,stoats,ferrets, weasel,cats, dogs,kookaburra, people n pigs! I wouldnt get to worried about waterdragons taking over nz ,dont think they would stand a chance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExotherMan Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Any organism which becomes wild will have an effect on native popultations. Disagree. Firstly the exotic species needs to be capable of establishing, there are records of many species simply failing to do so and a number of those that are now established required a great deal of human assistance to do so. Secondly once established there is no guarantee they will have any effect at all on endemic species, due largely to the fact that as we know most of our endemic species are now resticted to offshore island or mainland sanctuaries. Thirdly, goodluck to them. As stated above those mammalian 'pest' species that are already established have done a good job of consuming large quantities of endemic and exotic species since they arrived. In short they will be entering a very competitive ecosystem. Don't get too swept up in the overexaggerated anti-exotic view, yes some exotic species can be detrimental to endemics but our countries economy is also based on them. Its all a practical balance. I aggree that hobbyists can do alot for the development of husbandry techniques for captive animals, although this is not generally the motivation for keeping the animals. Money, money, money....... Many people dont get into natives because of the permitting system as well as the fact that they cant make a buck out of them. Yea can't agree more. I would like them to have a suitable system for exotic herps to try and swing away from the $$$ motivation... in fact a registration fee I would think would be an added incentive for MAF to do so??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 there are some who do it just for the love of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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