Hello, some water condition questions :)

[bobo]

Hello,

I have been keeping my 60L aquarium for a couple of years without any problems... until recently...

Currently in the aquarium:

- lots of plants

1 dwarf gourami

2 platys (1 is tiny - smaller than a neon)

3 Neons

3 Harlequins Barbs

1 Bristlenose Cat

Recently we have had a few deaths (3 or 4 in the last month). So I decided to test the water (never done so before).

PH was 6 or below.

Ammonia was .125 (barely registered)

Nitrite and Nitrate = 0

Apparently the PH is due to my largish log. So I have removed that and started to use some 'PH up' solution. Is there no way I can keep the log, or will the PH continue to fluctuate? Since I have removed it, I have put a couple of finger length fragments back into the water for the BNC to feed on - is this enough for this fish?

Are the trace levels of ammonia anything to be concerned about?

Should I ever throw away the filter sponge - or should I keep it due to good bacteria?

How are my fishstocks at the moment? I don't think I am overstocked but wanted to check. I wouldn't mind adding a few more once I have the water sorted.

Thank you in advance for any help! Much appreciated!

Cheers

BoBo

[phoenix44]

apart from the ammonia,

what exactly do you think is the problem with the water?

[livingart]

remember some types of fish only live a few years, so are your deaths possibly attributable to natural causes?

[SamH]

Which fish died? If the fish that died need alkaline pH (7.1+) then the low pH may be the cause.

Ammonia is fine at that level, but keep an eye on it. If it starts to climb, do a water change.

Using pH up is a temporary soloution, finding the cause is needed. The driftwood wouldn't have brought it down to below 6 unless there's a heap load in the tank.

BTW- pH up can be substitudes for baking soda, they do the same thing.

HTH and welcome

[stillnzcookie]

OK, here's my theory...

You have had your tank set up for a couple of years, with driftwood and plants in the tank. Over time the plants have grown, and the combination of plants and driftwood have made your water softer. Softer water means the pH can fluctuate more, and it has probably gradually dropped over time. The fish have adapted to a lower pH because it has happened so gradually, but either some of the fish can't cope with how low it has now become, or it has suddenly dropped a bit, causing fish to die. It is also possible that the low pH (especially if it is below 6) has killed off some of the good bacteria in your filter (hence the ammonia reading). I think this is what is called "old tank syndrome"

If you add some coral rock to your filter (apparently you can also just place some straight in the tank if it won't fit in the filter) it will act as a buffer and help stabilise your pH.

Remember to change pH SLOWLY so your fish have time to adjust back. Also, I think ammonia is less toxic at low pH, so you may need to keep an eye on it as you adjust back up. ANY ammonia is a problem.

It would be helpful to know the pH of your tap water - you may be able to add coral rock, then gradually adjust pH simply by doing regular water changes, instead of adding pH Up.

I think if you replace your filter sponge, you will need to have both sponges in the tank for at least 2-3 weeks to seed the new sponge with bacteria. I'd imagine you're better off keeping the old one.

Your stocking levels seem ok to me, but obviously you'll have to get your tank sorted out before adding new fish. Keep testing the water and doing water changes and good luck!

[bobo]

Thank you for the prompt replies guys.

I was under the impression that the PH might be the issue, since it was the only 'abnormal' result (it comes out of the tap at 7.2). I was told at the LFS that the log would be the cause, what could some other possibilities be? The log was a substantial piece of wood - roughly the length of a forearm and quite bulky.

I have had four fish die recently: 1 neon and 1 harlequin - dead - no visible symptoms. 1 Siamese Fighter (young) - got a massively curved spine and seemed miserable for quite some time before I euthanased (wasn't eating or moving, tried peas etc), and I replaced him with two dwarf gouramis, one of which got sick within a couple of days, laying on his side at the bottom of the tank, his eyes started getting bigger and bigger, like they were going to pop; he seemed to be on death's door for quite some time, so I euthanased him today

Anyway, it's pretty depressing watching fish die in your care, so was hoping the PH was the problem - it being easier to sort out.

NZ Cookie - once I have the PH stabalised, would it be possible to add the driftwood again, or will I head in the same direction - after adding a little coral, etc? I do like my log! I was going to buy an artificial one, but it isn't quite the same.

Thanks for the hint re: baking soda, Sam.

Will a few small fragments of wood keep the Bristlenose happy? They are only the size of my fingers?

Cheers for your time all, appreciate it

BoBo

[SamH]

I'm sorry to hear this

I reckon you need to start from scratch. Somethings gone down and if it were me, I'd redo the whole tank. Move all the occupants into another tank or big bucket with the heater and filter and drain the aqaurium. Wash the gravels, rocks, ornaments, etc really well and replace them again. Fill it back up and after it's stabalized, acclimitize the fish back in. This should help. Then again, it's just my opinion 8)

[livingart]

I have had four fish die recently: 1 neon and 1 harlequin - dead - no visible symptoms. 1 Siamese Fighter (young) - got a massively curved spine and seemed miserable for quite some time before I euthanased (wasn't eating or moving, tried peas etc), and I replaced him with two dwarf gouramis, one of which got sick within a couple of days, laying on his side at the bottom of the tank, his eyes started getting bigger and bigger, like they were going to pop; he seemed to be on death's door for quite some time, so I euthanased him today

if it was the ph i would expect you to have problems with nearly all the fish, i dies 3 still alive, 2 new gouramis 1 alive 1 dies from poss bact infection

how long has log been in there?

are you doing regular water changes?

[bobo]

if it was the ph i would expect you to have problems with nearly all the fish, i dies 3 still alive, 2 new gouramis 1 alive 1 dies from poss bact infection

how long has log been in there?

are you doing regular water changes?

I change ~33% weekly.

The harlequin and neons were long term fish - one died immediatly after I shifted house - so I kind of expected it and could put it down to natural attrition.

The Siamese we had for three months or so( pretty religiously).

The gourami a few days. His mate is absolutely fine - seems pretty happy in fact...

The log has been there for the duration of the tank, two years.

[bobo]

I'm sorry to hear this

I reckon you need to start from scratch. Somethings gone down and if it were me, I'd redo the whole tank. Move all the occupants into another tank or big bucket with the heater and filter and drain the aqaurium. Wash the gravels, rocks, ornaments, etc really well and replace them again. Fill it back up and after it's stabalized, acclimitize the fish back in. This should help. Then again, it's just my opinion 8)

Hmmmmmm. Might have to...

Cheers for the advice guys

[supasi]

Most of the fish you listed there will be fine in acidic water, so I dont think that is the problem.

The Betta was probably doomed from day one as he was probably breed from defective gene pool. Gouramis are known for thier sudden deaths or sickness and the tetras and Harliquins only have a short lifespan.

Of course the move probably played a small part in it but as LA said, for one to die and one to be fine, then I doubt it is the water parameters that have caused it.

Sometimes as with the nature of us human beings, we just go looking for answers that are not there.

HTH

[livingart]

i think as humans we don'r like the unknown and need an answer supasi

[stillnzcookie]

The log was a substantial piece of wood - roughly the length of a forearm and quite bulky.

NZ Cookie - once I have the PH stabalised, would it be possible to add the driftwood again, or will I head in the same direction - after adding a little coral, etc? I do like my log! I was going to buy an artificial one, but it isn't quite the same.

Depends on the length of your forearm(!), but I would imagine it would be ok. Driftwood will lower pH, but coral rock should counter that. We were advised to keep adding rock until everything stabilised - we have about a fistful in our filter for a 60L tank.

I think your low pH IS part of your problem, especially if it is below 6.0. Yes, the fish might be able to survive in it, but it may make them more susceptible to disease. Your gourami sounds like it had pop eye, which I think is caused by a bacterial infection. If you only had it a few days, it was possibly sick before you got it, and/or a sudden change in water parameters caused it to manifest.

Curved spine can be fish TB, or caused by nutrient deficiency or bacteria - google it and you may find what killed your siamese fighter.

How are your other fish at the moment? If they all seem fine, then any changes you make should be done slowly, so they can adjust to new water conditions.

If I were you, I'd add coral rock, do lots of small water changes (maybe 10% every couple of days) and see if the pH starts to rise of its own accord, without using pH Up. Keep a close eye on ammonia levels as the pH goes up. If you decide to strip down the tank (which may also be a good idea, but perhaps get the pH up first, so the fish don't die from a sudden change), just remember that the good bacteria will also be in your tank, on gravel etc, so a complete clean may also cause ammonia to rise. It may be worth adding Stress Zyme to boost the good bacteria (although people on here seem to have mixed views of this!). Let us know how you get on!

[Cricketman]

OK, here's my theory...

You have had your tank set up for a couple of years, with driftwood and plants in the tank. Over time the plants have grown, and the combination of plants and driftwood have made your water softer. Softer water means the pH can fluctuate more, and it has probably gradually dropped over time. The fish have adapted to a lower pH because it has happened so gradually, but either some of the fish can't cope with how low it has now become, or it has suddenly dropped a bit, causing fish to die. It is also possible that the low pH (especially if it is below 6) has killed off some of the good bacteria in your filter (hence the ammonia reading). I think this is what is called "old tank syndrome"

This would assume little, or no W/C over teh period of time. being that his tap pH is 7.2, and his 33% weekly W/C I thought this to be unlikely.

ANY ammonia is a problem.

not soo much, at the levels he states, it is still background levels, your going to have some ammonia, no matter what.

The fact that the tank is slightly acidic actually helps transform ammonia, (NH3) into ionised ammonia/ ammonium, (NH4+) which is not toxic to fish even at v.high concentrations. though both of them are measured by test kits to create Total Ammonia Nitrogen reading (TAN)

useful linkage

this shows the correlation between pH and Ammonia (NH3)

[stillnzcookie]

nzcookie wrote:

OK, here's my theory...

You have had your tank set up for a couple of years, with driftwood and plants in the tank. Over time the plants have grown, and the combination of plants and driftwood have made your water softer. Softer water means the pH can fluctuate more, and it has probably gradually dropped over time. The fish have adapted to a lower pH because it has happened so gradually, but either some of the fish can't cope with how low it has now become, or it has suddenly dropped a bit, causing fish to die. It is also possible that the low pH (especially if it is below 6) has killed off some of the good bacteria in your filter (hence the ammonia reading). I think this is what is called "old tank syndrome"

This would assume little, or no W/C over teh period of time. being that his tap pH is 7.2, and his 33% weekly W/C I thought this to be unlikely

Unless the tap water is also very soft (as ours is). Tap pH is 7.2, but is that just one test, or is it always that? We have soft tap water and our tap water fluctuates between about 6.4 and 7.6, and it can vary hugely from week to week (possibly day to day, but we only check when we do a water change). We have had major problems with pH, so this is some of what we have learnt along the way.

nzcookie wrote:

ANY ammonia is a problem.

not soo much, at the levels he states, it is still background levels, your going to have some ammonia, no matter wha

Correct, in that the fish can survive in this, but as far as I know, any ammonia means things are not quite working as well as they should, so it's worth finding out why before it does become an issue.

[Cricketman]

Unless the tap water is also very soft (as ours is). Tap pH is 7.2, but is that just one test, or is it always that? We have soft tap water and our tap water fluctuates between about 6.4 and 7.6, and it can vary hugely from week to week (possibly day to day, but we only check when we do a water change). We have had major problems with pH, so this is some of what we have learnt along the way.

Indeed, do you have a GH or KH test, Bobo? or are you able to take it to the pet shop so they can test it?

Correct, in that the fish can survive in this, but as far as I know, any ammonia means things are not quite working as well as they should, so it's worth finding out why before it does become an issue.

Trace amounts of ammonia mean that your fish are still doing 1's and 2's. There is always going to be ammonia free between the fish and the bacteria, its not an instant reaction. agreed if the ammonia continues to rise, then there may be problems and it is worth monitoring, but the statement "ANY ammonia is a problem" is false and a little doom and gloom.

Adding baking soda will raise your pH and KH

just my 2 bob worth.

EDIT: while looking at GH and KH

One teaspoon (about 6 grams) of sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) per 50 liters of water will increase KH by 4 degrees and will not increase general hardness. Also, two teaspoons (about 4 grams) of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) per 50 liters of water will increase both KH and GH by 4 degrees. Different proportions of each can be used to get the correct KH/GH balance dictated by the fish and plants in the tank. Since it is difficult to accurately measure small quantities of dry chemicals at home, a test kit should be used to verify the actual KH and GH that is achieved.

[Caryl]

Many say their fish died of old age but when I ask how old it was they will say it must have been at least 3 yrs old! That is not old for most species. I have had harlequins and tetras last over 8 years - as they should. The bigger the fish then longer it should live.

[bobo]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I'll start doing the small water changes you recommended cookie and I'll get the PH up to around 7. I have removed the log , so I guess I'll see if that is casue based on whether or not the pH drops again.

Cricketman, what's GH and KH - are they measurements to do with h20 hardness? I can take some water to the store for them to test- is soft water a problem?

Also, will my Bristleneose be happy with having splinters to munch on, since he no longer has a log? The splinters are roughly finger sized.

Again, thanks for all the advice!

BoBo

[Cricketman]

GH - general hardness

KH- calcium hardness.

both measurements of chemicals that can act as buffers (resist change in pH) those above especially resist towards the acid side, and as stateed can increase your pH too.

try this site for more on GH/KH

you could try boiling your wood again? ive never had real problems with my driftwood, usually the surface area isnt enough to cause drastic changes that quickly, even over time, your doing water changes constantly.

Bristlenose would want something to hide on/in/around. having a large chunk in there for him to slowly graze the cellulose off as it degrades is best, they only get a tiny amount/square cm if you think about it.

with the amount of wood i have in my aquarium, I dont see how yours should be creating such a problem.

try doing a w/c and re-testingn the pH after a while without the wood in there. thats the only way your going to be sure if it is the wood or not. also see the results of your gh/Kh tests.

you should be looking for about 8 -16dH (degrees of hardness) as that is medium- fair hardness.

[bobo]

Thanks Cricket.

I'll experiment a little with having the log in and out and see if the pH goes through any shifts, and I'll check with the LFS in redards to the water hardness.

Cheers matey

[bobo]

Ok, I have added in a bunch of crushed shells. I think this has stabalised the pH somewhat, as it seems to hover around 6.8 now. My concern is the tap water; testing it at night (I heard it becomes more alkaline at night?) gives me a reading of 8ish (can't quite tell between 8 and 8.2). That seems very high. Is this harmful to the fish as I do 30% weekly water changes? If I take the water in the morning will the pH be significantly lower (haven't had the chance to test in the a.m)? Should I cut down the size of my water changes, in order to minimise any pH fluctuation.

Thanks guys

[stillnzcookie]

It sounds like you are having the same problems we have been having! The Ph of our tap water seems to fluctuate wildly, as the water is so soft (I didn't realise it could be higher at night - interesting, will have to check!). If you are doing a 30% water change weekly, you could probably reduce that. We usually now only change about 8-10L every week (60L tank), and it has had no impact on ammonia levels etc, but it has helped to stabilise the tank (which now ranges from pH 6.8 - 7.0). Try it, and just keep an eye on things for a while to see what happens.

[bobo]

Cheers Cookie.

I just tested the tap water (mid-day instead of night) and the result was definitely lower, around the 7.6 range; hardly scientific though. Will check again earlier in the morning and see if the pH continues to drop.

I'll mess around with the quantity of water changes to minimise the impact of the pH fluctuations.

I'm struggling to keep my pH above 6.6 (waaaaay better than 6 and below) - is that an issue? Or will most fish be happy in the 6.6-6.8 range?

Cheers ears

[stillnzcookie]

If your pH is still dropping, try adding more crushed shells. Most of your fish should be quite happy in pH 6.6-6.8. I think all the fish in your first post actually prefer slightly acidic water, apart from the platys, and even they should be fine in that.

I'm interested in knowing what happens to your pH immediately after a water change. We started testing before and after water changes, and were still getting fluctuations in pH (ie if the tap water was high, pH went up and vice versa). We added even more coral rock, and we don't get changes now - if the tank is 6.8 before the water change, regardless of the pH of tap water, it is 6.8 after water change too.