livingart Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 mislabelling seems to be the main point of contention and is indeed irksome and your average "joe" would not know any different and would take the word of an"expert" i have been keeping and breeding animals etc for a while and am always open to correction of things i believe to be a truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Yeah the mislabelling is the major problem.. But the breeding and spreading of hybrids is a biggie too, even if the fish are passed on as hybrids then someone somewhere down the line maybe googling around to some random site and see a fish they think matches their fish and rename them. Generally letting any dodgy fish out at all is trouble. I just hate seeing people get ripped off, especially by the bigger players who should know better and people will trust because they are big. You cannot give the "they breed true" excuse really, second generation hybrids or even hybrids with the same male/female parents out of a colony can breed relatively true, it depends how many generations they have been bred for. Phill when you sent me some apisto's and 2 from 8 were badly and very obviously deformed even to me within 5sec of opening the box and seeing them in the bag bent or belly sliding and you used the reason "I don't have the time to look at every fish I send, I have xxx tanks going and thousands of fish breeding". I seriously doubt you have had the time to grade your fish and see if they are in fact breeding true, it can be the slightest difference in body shape/colour or other defining features which will show they are not breeding true. You would also need to keep every spawn from every female (ideally separately) for at least 1-2years (to see what shape they mature at and any sort of colour) before you could verify that they breed true, from a commercial point of view I doubt you have or will do this. Also if you suspect your red peacocks from Wellington have all been "chucked together" but you can "sort them when adults" how on earth are you going to sort the females? It is things like this that you say that throw all of your breeding programmes into serious doubt. The "peacocks cross in the lake thats how we get new species" discussion. My take on this is they cross breed and then the population has bred to be pure over many generations and then accepted as a pure species, this is evolution and many variables come into it. To me it does not give me license to cross all my peacocks because "hey it happens in the lakes" and develop my own Al. Stuartgranti "Bulls" varient. I guess at the end of the day we have to go by what comes out of the lake as it is documented (well kind of and changes every day) and we have to have somewhere to start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 another good post, ryan females can be the hardest to determine as to species, i had some royal blue and red shoulder put in the same tank by a volunteer who knew quite a bit about fish once difference in males was pointed out they realised these identical fish were indeed different The comment then was "i can understand now why some of these african enthusiasts can get stroppy about the purity of their fish" they didn't like the idea of putting about 50 4-5cm fish in the "feeder" category Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 With appistogramma..Thats not the story you told me as one belly slider and you did get an extra fish if i remember correctly.. Yes my fish are seperate and you know to well what happens when a net goes in a tank..All merry H ll happens.. Yes its very easy to miss a fish fault when all screaming around and worse in the bag.. As to Wellington Peacocks...I never said i was going to breed them..Not that i can recall just said sort them.. I also do supply a lot of show tanks with males only and shortly doing a 2 meter 15mm glass tank costing 3 grand and likely they might be in there.. Again..Repeated for the 10 thousand 'th time i do not name fish and also I now could very well be the largest breeder of africans..If not well i sell more that any i see so the in its self has to be good for fish keeping in nz.. I may well also for MAF doing another update on whats in NZ just like i did with the Amazons.. That will be very interesting im sure......Phill Collis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Again..Repeated for the 10 thousand 'th time i do not name fish so do you accept and take at face value the name you are given when you recieve fish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 As now..Next is photo from trade me purchase.. Who do you think i trust..Well i have not taken up offers and now vary of what ever you like to call them Not good for business or hobby's.........Phill Collis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Not sure what you mean. what is your point this shot is of one of my young Jacobfriebergi, and looks like your top shot I bought these guys parents as that name about 18mths ago. I have never called them anything else, not even "lemon jake" when 'overkeen' forumers looked to adopt that name based on internet research-ie find a lookalike photo. You could direct me now to an Australian Commercial trader site where A Jacobfriebergi is listed under "Firebird" Your second shot looks a bit weird- Red rubins(rubescens) or hybrid of?- Maleri? Yet I could go to an overseas site and show A rubescens as "Firebird" All confusing- I guess that is the potential outcome of flinging juvi's together to sort them out as adults and to use certain resource material to push barrows rather than to solve problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 fish will look different in a photo as well due to stress, lighting, camera, water conditions etc etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Point is,,First photo is Now ..2 nd is from auction...No one can tell they are going to turn bright Red.. I had another post but system crashed and was lost.. But to breeding..Think some believe that im going to x breed.. Well if that was my intent i could do so and destroy the fish marked also sell so cheap that you all will struggle to sell.. My stocks are very good and dont cut prices but do see others auctions at a lower pricing..Very dangerous... To Maleri...Island....They are all yellow so thats why a different name is sort.. But do you see them listed.....Well No Im building another photo tank that fish can live in for days so get past stress and reflections... Ps..Dont expect me to trust to many if future..If i buy and yes i will be ,proof will be required as to true ID.. Phill Collis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Sounds good You will of course avail your customers of those same edicts. Tell me Phil- have you tried floating with the tide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Well Yes..In my younger days i used to be a Diver..Been places you would never dream off..Also been with collecters of wild fish to.. But to Ryan's comments not to Trust my malaiw's Strange statement considering the last 6 lots i received came from him..Took the dollars with out asking my intent with them.. So now do i take it that i cant trust that are true..???????? I not getting a good feeling here about buying in new lines..... Phill Collis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Point is,,First photo is Now ..2 nd is from auction...No one can tell they are going to turn bright Red.. correct I had another post but system crashed and was lost.. But to breeding..Think some believe that im going to x breed.. no i don't think that is what i or others are saying, more a disagreement on ID on some fish Well if that was my intent i could do so and destroy the fish marked also sell so cheap that you all will struggle to sell.. i take it that is not your intent My stocks are very good and dont cut prices but do see others auctions at a lower pricing..Very dangerous... we all sell at prices that are relevant to each, some are hobbyists some run as a business To Maleri...Island....They are all yellow so thats why a different name is sort.. can understand needing to show they are a seperate variant and needing to put a name on them for joe public But do you see them listed.....Well No Im building another photo tank that fish can live in for days so get past stress and reflections... a very good idea, trying to get the photo to look like the actual fish is always hard Ps..Dont expect me to trust to many if future..If i buy and yes i will be ,proof will be required as to true ID.. that is something we should all strive for Phill Collis mark paterson Ps..Dont expect me to trust to many if future..If i buy and yes i will be ,proof will be required as to true ID i think this actually shows there are some people you can trust as to the ID of fish they sell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 "Ps..Dont expect me to trust to many if future..If i buy and yes i will be ,proof will be required as to true ID.." I agree. If people aren't willing to provide info in order of making a positive ID one would be forgiven for doubting fishes authenticity 13/8/08-Phil wrote "To Chiwa Island..Where i get fish from is not for you to know as i have suppliers all over nz.." With all due respect to Alex. is aae one of your secret suppliers, and isn't that a trade me logo on that fish? phil wrote 13/8/09 "Not a just a score of t/me at all.." shhh!- I put carbon copy paper under my computer. The shot earlier in this thread of my chilumba was of a young male plucked out of breeding tank with only girls after 2-3 weeks, then put into the all male tank so is flaring in full breeding colour. If i were to take a shot 2 days later of the same fish in that male tank he would have lost a lot of the flush, the blue wouldn't be as vivid and the intensity of colour in anal and dorsal woluld reduce. A week later and he is dark, lost most of his breeding colour and quite drab now as he isn't the dominant fish in this tank and his drabbness doesn't draw attention. One which one of those photos would you require for the ID. I would expect phil to trust me and my fish as far as he can throw me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Yes my fish are seperate and you know to well what happens when a net goes in a tank..All merry H ll happens.. Yes its very easy to miss a fish fault when all screaming around and worse in the bag.. Again..Repeated for the 10 thousand 'th time i do not name fish and also I now could very well be the largest breeder of africans..If not well i sell more that any i see so the in its self has to be good for fish keeping in nz.. But to Ryan's comments not to Trust my malaiw's Strange statement considering the last 6 lots i received came from him..Took the dollars with out asking my intent with them.. I have no doubt you have kept all your fish separate it is where you get them from and the names you give them that concern me. I really think you should get some photos put them up on cichlid forum to at least confirm the id you purchased them as before selling and also ensure you buy them all from descent sources. People trust you and I believe that you have a responsibility to uphold that trust by supplying a good quality and correctly named product. Regarding comment you do not give fish names you purchased some fish as maleris and have now renamed them, is this not renaming them? You could well be the largest but that does not mean you know the most about fish or have sourced quality ones, anyone can buy 200 tanks fill them with fish that doesn't really mean much. Yes you have purchased some fish from me and those are not dodgy, I cannot guarantee what you do with them or what names you choose to give them after you have them that is your choice. It is obviously you purchased them to breed from and that is great I want to see more quality africans being spread around. My comment not to purchase fish from you is based on the random sources of fish and the comments you have made (mainly renaming and "sorting out once adults") and purchasing things like those rubins reds for $2ea in that other thread that were sold as baenshi and had dodgy written all over them. No doubt alot of your fish are great and I know alot of them came from good sources but others, who knows? I guess people could pick and choose what they buy from you based on its source but as you have said this is a "secret" so it is really hard to know. I have also talked to plenty of people who I deal with regularly and the complaints of deformed or munted fish or fish that aren't what they are supposed to be (red shoulder sevs for example) are very common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Regarding comment you do not give fish names you purchased some fish as maleris and have now renamed them, is this not renaming them? You could well be the largest but that does not mean you know the most about fish or have sourced quality ones, anyone can buy 200 tanks fill them with fish that doesn't really mean much. " Quote The maleri island i repeat are all yellow so why do you still say im renaming them..? I have had a view from over seas real fish experts and they so far agree..They are not M Island.. I put about photo tank..Thats what is for..To sent photo's not to forums but real experts that go by all sorts like scales.scale count..All the tech stuff that no one here can do that i know of.. The Baenshi sunshine peacocks came form one very good and known breeder here in ak and now breeds other lines.. So why should i not trust his name..? Also to trust..You have me breeding and mixing tanks etc yet you have never seen my set up.. My room is 70 square meters containing..124 Tanks averaging 250 L included are 36 x 40 L .Plus 8 x 8 L plus 20 bins at 45 L plus 40 x 3 L jars..Now why would i want to mix peacocks..?? Yes dolphins go with electric yellow for ovious reasons.. Just today i have seen others for sale and have not the time nor interest in buying because of the RED maleri..And yes that photo is the one off trade me auction and several knew alex and said trusted breeder..Well im sorry but its going to be hard to buy more when you all cant see that problems with buying a bright red peacock and finding might be more yellow than any other colour..New regal Yellow...? ...How am i to know.. But spanner in the works..Go check the import list and finds just a few legal to be in nz and no use saying old names as there were none..Phill Collis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Sorry Phill I left out a word in my other post that completely changed what it means I don't believe you would mix the fish I know you know that much. I just believe that you do a few dodgy things with your naming sourcing etc and that would worry me when purchasing fish. It is nothing personal just my opinion, I would probably have to run things differently if I had to make money from my fish, I am lucky enough to not have to do that. That allows me to be ruthless and realistic with what I have, even once I have spent money and years growing something out to find out it is rubbish. The maleri strains in NZ are confusing and there does seem to be some variation in the degree of colouration within the strains. I have kept 3 different maleri red strains and finally found one that I like enough to keep and have just managed to get them breeding. Import list states: "Al. Nyassae" as the only allowed peacock species, at one stage all peacocks from that lake used this name this can be used with maf to legally get most peacock species into NZ as they all used that name originally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Up 1964 malawi was a british colony and was known as Nyassaland and the lake was Lake Nyassa, I and obviously the officials read that as all Aulonocara species from lake Nyassa (Malawi) Nyassa has several spelling options also. "I presume" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 With names..I have posted the i have made a second photo tank and photo's will be going over sea's to get specialist views..Also have said not have been list nor are for sale as yet..So why are you stuck on this naming thing..? Also whats dodgy about trying to get better scientific views..?? I also said im growing out firebirds till know what is full colours..Have not said anything about selling them either.. I have show that firebird is not my naming at all.. ! If i like then then yes they will be line breed.. To MAF...You will not get legal imports under nyssa ..Each fish now have to have 2 names in latin title.. They might not have an expert but they are not blind..Any shape difference and they will know not a one type.. Will destroy a whole shipment if dont agree with names supplied.. As for others for sale ..I have seen many and find it hard to believe what i see so you think you are the only one worried.. Look at sunshine peacocks on t/me today...Tell there name in forum views..?? .....Phill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 people are probably stuck on the naming thing as then you know exactly what you should be getting when young fish purchased mature the naming needs to be the full scientific name to ensure that what it is, is what it is too many fish in this country are sold from lfs etc with a name plonked on fish by the importer, exporter or lfs having the right id and name ensures that buyers and sellers all know where they stand and nobody should be unhappy as more experienced fish keepers with hopefully more knowledge we can help to ensure novices are on the right track from the start we have a responsibility to lead by example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Phil- Are you really that obtuse! Going overseas to get confirmation on an peacock you got from unknown source of unknown source in NZ. This statement once again has more to do with you blowing hard in some attempt of painting a picture that you are privvy to amazing resources and experts. Where are they. They wouldn't support you in any one of your points based on the facts. You don't listen as you have obviously spents yrs diluding yourself that you don't have to. I have no confidence in your knowlege on African cichlids what so ever Phil-Fact. I base that opinion on your opinions and methods as a breeder, and because of that I can't call you a good breeder. Your diatribes all start with the attack on a person and turn into a rant of how we should listen yo you because you think so. Posting trade me feedbacks is all about Phil Collis mate and you fail to see the point.again. I am educated, I am well read, I have the ability reach logical conclusion based on known facts. Personal digs or you trying to remember who I am, as if that matters I find laughable. You have most of us here scratching our heads with some of your statements, not because they are out of league because they are ramblings. You contradict yourself with virtually every post you make. You don't even get the subtle digs Phil- stretch out your hand as far as it goes. Then look past that. That mate is where the rest of us stand, look and you might see us I wrote this in the very first post of the "WTB..." thread 3 dayus ago Mate -Bang on!! Facts only!- I don't need a diatribe of fermenting personal digs or Buffoonery claims that 35 yrs of fishkeeping gives you more rights than others as seems to be your Mantra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted August 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 lets try to keep this thread within the guidelines as i think this issue is important to the hobby in new zealand there are a few people interested in this issue and will be able to make up their own minds as to what is being discussed, even though they may not be posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I was most importing Malawi over 30 years ago so dont tell me i dont know them..Im a lot smarter than you think.. Proberly breed more than any other in nz as well..Do you think that just because i had discus thats all i had..Well you will never know now because every time i post you get smarter.. And dont tell me you can id them...I dont have faith in any now so who's the looser......Im giving no more info here so all can just wonder what i have......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Facts only!- I don't need a diatribe of fermenting personal digs or Buffoonery claims that 35 yrs of fishkeeping gives you more rights than others as seems to be your Mantra I was most importing Malawi over 30 years ago so dont tell me i dont know them. :lol: :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I would love to know who your experts are and where they are from, do you pay these guys for their expert opinion? Do they know the background behind the fish? Do you? It is great to say you get expert id's and then just browse around and do your own but again would love to know who they are Regarding your firebirds (one of the many common name for Aulonocara Rubescens a line bred form of Aulonocara sp. "Stuartgranti Chipoka, also a common name for al jacobfreibergi ) that you purchased as Aulonocara baenschi, what will you be selling them as? Baenshi or Rubescens or Jacobfreibergi? Also where did your a. stuartgranti come from? Using that name alone is very misleading as there are many many stuartgranti variants all completely different fish, when I saw you listing under that name with a web photo I instantly though dodgy. Also if you read up on maleri peacocks their colour can vary "In the lake, Aulonocara sp. "Stuartgranti Chipoka" demonstrates a variable color variation, ranging from sunflower yellow to fire-orange" so some natural variation with a "maleri red" or maleri island peacock is natural. The sunshines on trademe are most likely http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1315 they have been marketed under many names in NZ, including dragonsblood, golden peacock, prime silver etc etc etc.. These are a line bred hybrid fish so shouldn't be given a scientific name and could potentially be given any common name you desire, the person selling should really be a bit more descriptive in their auction to explain this, when I breed and sell mine I go into some detail on them. Before anyone comments although these are a line bred hybrid fish they do breed true, and it does not give anyone license to go and cross them with other fish because they are already hybrids. According to what I have heard, maf do allow more peacock species in under the nyassae name, they are not idiots and if the original intent with sticking a. nyassae on the list was to let all peacocks in (as they were all called that originally) then they will allow them, there is apparently a bible that shows all renaming etc. But I am not an importer nor have I heard it from maf in person, I believe firenzenz is correct with his assumption about the country/lake naming I have been led to believe the same. No one is insulting your intelligence just questioning your methods and maybe trying to get you to listen to reason You could post pics of your fish and I will admit I won't be able to id many I am no good at it and don't have the experience I turn to other places and people to do that for me. It is a very sad day when anyone just makes statements like "I was most importing Malawi over 30 years ago so dont tell me i dont know them." to me that means they think they are gods gift and can do what they like and will never listen to any good reason or other opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogod Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Give the man a shovel. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.