Hybrid fish

[bulldogod]

If you have a golden fish and breed it with red one of same type of fish (severums) does this make them hybrids?Apparently the golden isnt dominent in breeding so its alrite to do this to get red line going. Im reasonably new to fish but its wrong to me. If ya breed a bulldog with a staffy but the staffy isnt dominent in breeding then its still a cross, not purebred.Surely same with fish. Wrong.Wrong.... :evil:

[ryanjury]

Yep I saw that and thought it was dodgy but then I wouldn't expect anything else from him, all down to making a quick buck

Definition of a true hybrid would depend on if the 2 fish were considered different species.. I am not upto the play with severums so unsure if they are different sp. If they are the same species then it is just crossing 2 different colour strains (like a blue and red guppy) and here is no problems with hybrids. My thoughts would be if you were responsible and wanted to pass on good fish you would grow up the babies and cross them back to the female to hopefully produce the desired colour strain. Otherwise advertising them as Red head rotkeil then saying in some random way they are actually crossed babies in the text is a bit misleading..

I can see where he is going with it, and if we were at risk of loosing that colour strain to NZ then some crossing and then crossing back would be awesome but I would only do it as a last resort.

[chilli]

hmmm if its the same type off fish should be okay but i dont no(just means red off spring carry gold colour,and if bred back to gold should have gold off spring)(please correct me if im wrong)

the dogs are crosses

i love the adds on tm that say lab crosses and there little red pitbulls(what a mean throw back)

[livingart]

as ryan said breeding 2 seperate species is a cross making a hybrid

breeding 2 colour varieties of a species is not a cross

a bulldog (American, English etc) x staffordshire is a cross of 2 breeds of dog ie: a crossbreed that is still Canis familiaris.

some regard the rotkeil as a natural colour form of Heros efasciatus

[Ira]

Although, in this case, I believe the red severums are a difference species, there are a handful of different severum species all of which are called severums, Heros Severus being the common gold and green. Red sevrums being, I think Heros efasciatus.

[alanmin4304]

Crossing different species can produce low or no fertility.

[Cricketman]

speaking of species, from what i remember in biology...

say you have a population, they have 1 gene pool and they all look fairly much the same.

when a isolating geographic or other factor (such as being removed from the area, or a mountain pops up, or a river splits and forms a oxbow lake etc) a part of the original population gets isolated. these 2 populations are now subjected to different evolutionary pressures and as such their niches move apart and thier gene pools (through mutation, or genes being omitted over time) become very different.

now my understanding is, and im willing to be corrected, that the 2 popultaions are classed as different species when they cannot reproduce with the original population (whether it be due to physical, behavioral, or other biological factors) or when they are forced to breed the F1 are either infertile or have genetic problems.

only in certain circumstances can the f1 survive and are fertile, and show traits of both the parent populations. and this is referred to as a hybrid.

also if inthe case that 2 animals have a different amount of chrmasomes, the F1 is always either infertile if come to term, or is aborted or does not fertilise in the 1st place. famous chromasomal difference that comes to term and can survive... the Jack ass, and even in this case it has to be a male donkey and female horse i believe, and the ofspring is always male??

something likethat anyway.

[Simian]

I was under the impression (advice from the manager of HFF) that the red severums that are in NZ are just a colour variant of the gold Severum, its apparently a colour mutation which has been selectively bred for.

This is entirely unconfirmed.

[phoenix44]

speaking of species, from what i remember in biology...

now my understanding is, and im willing to be corrected, that the 2 popultaions are classed as different species when they cannot reproduce with the original population (whether it be due to physical, behavioral, or other biological factors) or when they are forced to breed the F1 are either infertile or have genetic problems.

only in certain circumstances can the f1 survive and are fertile, and show traits of both the parent populations. and this is referred to as a hybrid.

my old biology book (campbell, 2007) says the same thing. if because of geographic isolation, the 2 populations develop unique traits, over time (thousands - millions of years) the 2 gene pools will vary. then if those 2 species (and now they are classified as 2 different species) mix - the resulting off spring are classified as hybrids. this is based, on physical appearances, genetic traits (phenotype and genotype).

so you're spot on with that.

my question however is:

is it wrong for someone to mix the gold, and the red (lets assume the red is Homozygous dominant, and not heterozygous dominant); when it is clearly mentioned that the offspring are a cross between the recessive (lets assume that's right too) gold, and the dominant red?

also - if there are as he says only 2 females in the country - and we know they arent going to be popping out wigglers any time soon, wouldnt it make sense to broaden the gene pool by mixing it with a gold... thus Increasing the strength of the genes, by adding new genetic information into an already limited population?

i can understand, and agree with the cons of introducing a hybrid into established populations, but sometimes, when species are dying off this is exactly what is done, in the hopes that the hybrids genes will pass on and broaden a narrowing gene pool.

i dont think we have enough information in this case to make an informed, educated decision with regards to what is truly going on => we ned to know what sort of dominant genes, or recessive genes we are taking about and this cannot be determined by breeding them to see what the resulting offspring are UNLESS a 100% hatch rate is achieved, and ALL the babies make it to maturity, and this continues to happen for a fair few batches. that way if there is a mix of solid colours (like pure golden and pure red) we know only 1 colour gene will be expressed. but if we see a wonky colour like a mix of red and golden then we know that the genes are being co expressed, and that opens a whole new can of worms.

Just my opinion. the technical stuff in this post can be found in Campbell Biology - libraries, and booksellers should have it. I think it costs about $150. it a massive fat book.

[Ira]

I'd say Yes it is wrong. Even if they are the same species given the small pool of species and strains we have here you should be trying to keep strains pure rather than muddying them up.

[Dixon1990]

I was under the impression (advice from the manager of HFF) that the red severums that are in NZ are just a colour variant of the gold Severum, its apparently a colour mutation which has been selectively bred for.

This is entirely unconfirmed.

This isnt the 'redspotted severum' its the redhead/red shoulder(green body).

[Simian]

This is entirely unconfirmed.

[livingart]

i think it is wrong to interbreed

but if the gene pool is nonexistant and there is a chance of saving the gene pool then i would do the same thing

it would need to be made clear though that all subsequent fish came about by inbreeding

amd care would have to be taken to fix the rotkeil strain in future generations

otherwise you muddy up the future generations of both species of severum

the ideal thing to do would be to put the offspring in a few experienced hands and keep the breeding controlled until the strain is fixed with all undesirable fish culled and not released to general sales

[Dixon1990]

So pretty much what he has done is just stupid?

[phoenix44]

i think it is wrong to interbreed

but if the gene pool is nonexistant and there is a chance of saving the gene pool then i would do the same thing

it would need to be made clear though that all subsequent fish came about by inbreeding

amd care would have to be taken to fix the rotkeil strain in future generations

otherwise you muddy up the future generations of both species of severum

the ideal thing to do would be to put the offspring in a few experienced hands and keep the breeding controlled until the strain is fixed with all undesirable fish culled and not released to general sales

yes but that is not consistent with profit maximation rules

If i was a business owner operating in a recession i would do the exact same thing, i mean we cant possibly become a nanny state and make rules about how and what people do with things that we sell. unless of course you sign a contract to the contrary, but that isn't going to happen. :lol:

ok maybe that was a bold and dangerous statement to have made, but im only using it in this context.

[phoenix44]

oh and i personally detest inbreeding. i even go as far as to avoid fish that have been inbred if i know for certain that they have been... the whole concept is mucked up beyond any reason. so when people sell cichlids etc, that have been inbred cause they want to preserve a trait - i just don't buy that fish.

If its wrong for humans, then its wrong for animals... fish included. I suppose most ppl would be relatively ok with inbreeding fish on a comparative basis(to say if someone was to inbreed dogs to preserve a trait) because "hey its just a fish right? (i get to hear this all the time)" :evil: :evil: :evil:

:lol:

[ryanjury]

oh and i personally detest inbreeding. i even go as far as to avoid fish that have been inbred if i know for certain that they have been... the whole concept is mucked up beyond any reason. so when people sell cichlids etc, that have been inbred cause they want to preserve a trait - i just don't buy that fish.

If its wrong for humans, then its wrong for animals... fish included. I suppose most ppl would be relatively ok with inbreeding fish on a comparative basis(to say if someone was to inbreed dogs to preserve a trait) because "hey its just a fish right? (i get to hear this all the time)" :evil: :evil: :evil:

:lol:

Very bold statement I hope you never buy an electric yellow (they originate from a very small number of original wild caught fish) or basically any imported fish because I can pretty much guarantee most imported fish are inbred and originate from the same blood lines.. Alot of the time I think you can do the whole 6 fish from different places and very often end up with related fish because with a small country like NZ with a limited number of importers it is going to happen. Inbreeding isn't ideal but is the only way some fish lines can be kept pure and as long as you are doing it right and removing any deformities or stopping it for other options if you get large numbers of deformities it is fine. I would rather keep inbreeding the lines that I do have than introduce new blood from a potentially dodgy source and put all the selective breeding that has been done to waste. If our fish were imported with proper strains/locational varients (as they are in the states etc) then it would be alot easier to breed with unrelated fish and not end up with worse fish than what you started with.

It is very easy to sit here and say inbreeding is bad and I wont buy any inbred fish (can pretty much guarantee the blue rams you always talk about and the bolivian rams you are selling are inbred). Most of the fancy aquarium fish are line bred (fancy word for inbreeding) to produce certain traits.

[phoenix44]

If i buy a ram you can bet your left one that its not inbred. it take more than 6 months of good searching, and several different supplier orders to make sure they came from different import batches. PS- i no longer keep blue rams.

2. I no longer keep africans cause i was sick and tired of hearing cry me a river stories about bad stock, poor lines, stories of people who know nothing about genetics and how they preserve traits by culling of mutant fish. genetic mutation is the best, most common source of genetic variation- this is genetics 101. so if you kill off "mutants" you are getting rid of the one small glimmer of hope that the fish gene pool will expand. and since we're on the topic of mutant fish - if your fish is born with an abnormally large head (and ive seen this), take the hint and know that what you are doing is fundamentally wrong.

also most mutations are recessive, and are not expressed - but still are still carried for on the alleles.

it wasnt long ago that a race of humans wanted to preserve their blue eyed, blond hair traits... course we have a good, unmentionable word for them. surely no one is in support of keeping blue eyes in the family right? we cant be selectively impartial.

getting back on topic, this post never was, and never has been about my fish so please lets not get off topic and coincidentally down my throat. all i want to know are what other opinions are floating around out there, and if they make sense from a scientific point of view. That all.

[Dixon1990]

I think phoenix has something to get over

[phoenix44]

:lol:

[Ira]

it wasnt long ago that a race of humans wanted to preserve their blue eyed, blond hair traits... course we have a good, unmentionable word for them.

Blonde babes? Oh, that's two words. Hotties?

[phoenix44]

I'll let you know. :lol:

[livingart]

just a small point

an amount of inbreeding occurs in wild populations of animals

a dominant animal holds a herd or harem and breeds with his daughters etc then is usually diplaced by one of his offspring

survival of the strongest genetics

all of the different breeds of dog, cat and goldfish in the world are products of selective inbreeding

[phoenix44]

It is very easy to sit here and say inbreeding is bad and I wont buy any inbred fish (can pretty much guarantee the blue rams you always talk about and the bolivian rams you are selling are inbred). Most of the fancy aquarium fish are line bred (fancy word for inbreeding) to produce certain traits.

I never said that, I said:

oh and i personally detest inbreeding. i even go as far as to avoid fish that have been inbred if i know for certain that they have been...

________

Mark I agree with you, because that is what happens in nature after all.

and the

all of the different breeds of dog, cat and goldfish in the world are products of selective inbreeding

argument is a fantastic one i must say I cannot find a counter argument of course :lol:

[ryanjury]

Yep inbreeding occurs naturally and needs to keep happening so we can keep the species that we have. I have stated that I will happily introduce new blood if it can be guaranteed to me that the fish I am selecting to breed into my strain are the same with most fish this is very hard as lots of species vary with location so you have different variants within a species. Yes they are the same species but breeding between them should be discouraged.

You are saying to keep the mutants and if any are produce you are doing something wrong? I would say these mutants occur in the wild and don't survive, because the munted fins or whatever is deformed in them would made them easier prey. Yes alot of mutations are good (albino's different colours etc) and do occur within populations separated by various things but these aren't physical deforming ones. I feel that mother nature did a brilliant job of creating us species of fish and we should preserve them as close as we can, who knows when exports or imports may stop in NZ we don't want to have to carry on with a bunch of crosses.

I am glad you are not into africans any more if you cannot understand the above I would hate to think what you would do and cross in order to not inbreed.

Regarding the original post, it appears that he has crossed 2 different coloured severums. This would be ok if (and I know he has) he has searched high and low for the right male and not found one so in order to preserve the species he has done a cross.

What I don't agree with is how he is advertising them (as full red headed severums with an awesome internet photo) and then in the small text writing random stuff about the cross he has done. Personally I feel he would be more correct and honest to sell them as a red head x gold severum, or keep them going until he has established a nice line for sale, at the size they are he really has no idea what they will do as they mature, as someone pointed out the bottom line is making $$'s..