kiwiplymouth Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 I am working on a sump design for the new 8 footer that is going in my lounge. I have made the sump intake below the sump water level to reduce noise and thought that if I use a larger pump than needed I could restrict the output with a tap and refilter/re airate the excess water. This is what I have come up with so far and would appeciate your feedback. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Your flow into the sump doesn't need to be below the water level (by much anyway) it won't make any difference to the noise and the back pressure caused by this might make the water level in the tank slowly increase. Using an over sized pump is a waste, and will increase problems. A waste because it will cost you more for the pump, more for the power, more for the plumbing, and you don't gain anything. Problems, all other things being equal the bigger the pump the more noise and heat. Also have you looked into the flow curves for pumps. Pumps usually have 4 ratings you need to be interested in, 1) flow rate, this is a zero head, i.e. nothing connected to the pump 2) Head height, this is the MAXIMUM height the pump will pump to. But doesn't include plumbing, taps, etc etc, so a pump rated at 3 meters head, by the time you add some plumbing might only pump to 2 meters, and this is the maximum so you wont actually get much if any water flow at this height. 3) Watt's, this give you an idea how efficient the pump is, which also relates to how much noise and heat it will give off. 4) flow curve, this is curve that shows you how much water it will pump at a given head height. To use this you need to work out what you head height is, there are calculators on the net just google it. One of the great things about sumps is you can have a trickle or wet/dry filter area, this is how you should be using you bio ball's, they will work many times better. Have you allowed for what happens if the power goes off and the pump stops working? Your drawing doesn't look like it allows for enough room to hold the water that will back syphon from your display tank, you also need to look at how you set up return into the tank and your drain from the tank to minimise the back syphon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver21 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Why do you have a tap in the inlet to the sump? to me it achives nothing and if not set correctly cause your sump to empty into your tank causing an overflow and your pump to burn out, unless its there for some sort of maintanence issue? And could you feed the input to the sump into the first filter media cavity, save space so you have more space for overflow into the pump cavity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Yeah, I agree, ditch the tap on the inlet side, no need with an overflow. I assume this is going to be freshwater? So there's no point in having a lot of extra flow so you need to restrict the pump. If it was saltwater more flow is always good and you can use the bypass water off the pump to run a skimmer, media reactors etc, but that isn't the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiplymouth Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Why do you have a tap in the inlet to the sump? to me it achives nothing and if not set correctly cause your sump to empty into your tank causing an overflow and your pump to burn out, unless its there for some sort of maintanence issue? And could you feed the input to the sump into the first filter media cavity, save space so you have more space for overflow into the pump cavity I thought the tap on the sump inlet may be handy for maintanence but its not really needed and as you say it could cause problems or a blockage. Good idea about the input going into the first media cavity. It will give me more space for overflow. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 ditch the tap on the inlet side Leave the tap there, if you ever want to run the display tank with out the sump you are going to need it, or you will have to lower the water level in the display to below the drain inlet. so you need to restrict the pump What the point in this?? Just get the correct sized pump to start with. Would you buy a falcon then fill the boot with concrete cause you only needed the power of a corolla? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver21 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Leave the tap there, if you ever want to run the display tank with out the sump you are going to need it, or you will have to lower the water level in the display to below the drain inlet. or you could just not full the tank up to the overflow level if you want to do this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Leave the tap there, if you ever want to run the display tank with out the sump you are going to need it, or you will have to lower the water level in the display to below the drain inlet. Which will be just slightly lower than the normal water level when it's running over the overflow. Not a significant probelm. And if it's going to be permanent it's better to put a permanent cap on the end of it just in case of an overfilling accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 What the point in this?? Just get the correct sized pump to start with. Would you buy a falcon then fill the boot with concrete cause you only needed the power of a corolla? That's what I just said, "There's no point having extra flow that forces you to restrict the pump." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 That's what I just said, "There's no point having extra flow that forces you to restrict the pump." Sorry I can see how you ment the sentance now, but it is unclear and can be read both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Which will be just slightly lower than the normal water level when it's running over the overflow. Not a significant probelm. This depends on a lot of factors. How low the outlet is, my display level drops by a couple of inches when I don't have the sump running which is about 100 liters less water and this tank is 1/2 again longer than mine! . How long the sump is out of action, low water for a couple of days might be fine, a month and it might be get annoying. How low the surround on the top goes. Having a tap also lets you pump extra water up into the display from the sump, that extra inch or two in the display can make all the difference it being able to do some tasks in the sump without needing to drain lots of water. In all the years I have been running sumps, I have only needed to use that tap 1/2 dozen times, but every time I had to use its been worth 10 times what the $30 tap cost me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver21 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 suphew, what was the occasions that you needed to use the tap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilo Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Personally I would swap the position of the bio balls to the outlet side of the sump. In fact I suggest using another of the filter wool chambers for bio balls as well. The filter wool will get rid of suspended junk but the bio balls will do a better job of changing nitrite into nitrate. Where the bio balls are now they will get gunked up by particles that get past the layer of filter wool and develop a biofilm consisting of very little nitrifying bacteria. If it was on the other side then the food source for non-nitrifying bacteria has been removed allowing for more real estate for the right sort of bacteria to make its home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 suphew, what was the occasions that you needed to use the tap? I have had to replace my sump which took a couple of days. Changed drain plumbing below tap a number of times (which I could have done with out the tap off, but would rather not have water dribbling over me while working under a cabinet). Also when I work on equipment in the sump it's often easier to have a low water level so turn off the tap and pump as much water as possible into the display. Remembering I have a salt water tank to draining and replacing a couple of hundred liters isn't a simple task. The other benifit of a tap is they double up as a union which is very handy on any plumbing bit and cost about the same as a union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 This depends on a lot of factors. How low the outlet is, my display level drops by a couple of inches when I don't have the sump running which is about 100 liters less water and this tank is 1/2 again longer than mine! . How long the sump is out of action, low water for a couple of days might be fine, a month and it might be get annoying. How low the surround on the top goes. Having a tap also lets you pump extra water up into the display from the sump, that extra inch or two in the display can make all the difference it being able to do some tasks in the sump without needing to drain lots of water. if your tank holds an extra 100 liters when the sump is running what happens to that 100 liters in a power cut, flood? or does your sump have enough to hold an extra 100 l? I find this with my setups when power goes out if tanks and sump are full to the brim then excess water from tanks drains into sump and floods....lucky they on a concrete floor... flood for thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Then you're doing it wrong, you don't fill the sumps to the brim while it's running. Ideally what you would do is fill the sump up as much as it can hold before turning the pump on and have the main tank filled to whatever level it would stop overflowing(Or siphoning if that's the lowest point) then turn the pump on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerpeller Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Just about every salty knows (those that run sumps anyway :lol: ). Always compensate for "water in the piping" when building a sump. As Suphew pointed out having to replace saltwater everytime the tank shuts down is a pain in the backside and depending on your set-up, could cost a bit. Plan for your sump to hold more then what is in the plumbing though. You will never know when you might need the extra volume. Oh and another tip. Mark the side of the sump when the sump in operation,and when the pump is off. That way you know exactly how much water to put back into the tank, without having to run the tank then kill the power and wait for a flood if you overfilled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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